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Witchcraft, From Druids To Wicca Part 1

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Secrets don’t vanish; they change costumes. We open the cupboard of British “witchcraft” and find not pointy hats but a living history of healers, timekeepers, and storytellers—people who read the weather in birds, brewed medicine from hedgerows, and helped neighbours through birth, grief, and bad harvests. From Roman notes on druids to the alignments at Stonehenge, we follow the clues that show how nature, ritual, and community once fit together.

As we move through Anglo‑Saxon charms and Norse echoes, fairies and familiars step into view—not as cartoon sprites, but as the language people used to explain intuition, second sight, and hard‑won herbal knowledge. Then the winds change. Between the 1400s and 1700s, church courts recast local care as a pact with the Devil. Scotland’s trials turned fear into policy; England’s “evidence” often meant gossip in a courtroom; the Pendle cases and the Witchfinder General reveal how jealousy, property, and power hid behind piety. Most accused were women. Many were midwives or widows. The pattern looks less like sorcery and more like social control.

And yet, resilience remains. In Wales and Ireland, folklore buffered communities from the worst excesses, and by the 1700s scepticism finally took root. The 1735 Witchcraft Act declared witches fiction while prosecuting frauds, a strange halfway house that still hints at modern debates about belief, evidence, and care. Along the way we spotlight the Cunning Folk—the village healers and counsellors who feel, frankly, like an early NHS with charms and salves. We close by teeing up the Victorian revival and the birth of modern Wicca in part two, where the fragments of folk practice become a new religious identity.

If you’re curious about how myth, medicine, and power shaped each other—and what that says about us now—press play. Subscribe, share this episode with a friend who loves history and folklore, and leave a review to tell us what challenged your assumptions.

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SPEAKER_00:

Hello and welcome to Bonus Dad.

SPEAKER_01:

Bonus Daughter, a special father-daughter podcast with me, Hannah.

SPEAKER_00:

And me, Davy, where we discuss our differences, similarities, share a few laughs and stories. Within our ever-changing and complex world.

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Each week we will discuss a topic from our own point of view. And influences throughout the decades.

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Or you could choose one by contacting us.

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Via email, Instagram, Facebook, or TikTok. Links in bio.

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome. That's not got old, has it, the clapperboard.

SPEAKER_01:

It has not, is it? It's not got old. I love it.

SPEAKER_00:

I absolutely love it.

SPEAKER_01:

Welcome to another episode of Bonus Dad. Bonus daughter. Very special episode, because we're going to talk about witchcraft today, and hopefully we're not going to get cursed.

SPEAKER_00:

No, no. So I wrote this one. I was like thinking what other types of episodes could I write, you know, other ones do it. And I thought, ooh, let's do. Because I said I said in the New Year episode that I was going to do one on religion.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Didn't I? And I said to get Father Jack in and he's going to come in and talk about Father Jack. I know it's really funny called Father Jack. He's my brother-in-law. But Brother Jack. Brother Jack. Brother Jack. That's that's very monkey. Monkey. Monkey. As in monk. Monk. Monkey. Yeah. Oh, talking about monks. Uh have you seen um have you started watching the Mighty Nine?

SPEAKER_01:

No. My lord. Nilo.

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Because Buregaard in that is uh is a monk in monk fighter in DD.

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Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. It's it's a brilliant.

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Orpheod. I d I don't know what you're on about. I I have no idea. The likelihood is very similar.

SPEAKER_00:

It's brilliant. Oh, I love I love the Mighty Nine. There's six of them. And he goes, what the guy goes, what are you called? He goes, and he goes, We are the Mighty Nine. And he goes, one, two, three, four, five, six. And do you know who plays one of the uh characters in it? Uh Maglian.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, sweet. Yeah, okay, very much. I am now way more interested. Yeah, there you go. So yeah, I thought you like that. I don't know whether to convince Mitchell to watch Firefly or not.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, he's got to watch Firefly.

SPEAKER_01:

But I feel like it just ends.

SPEAKER_00:

Then you watch Serenity.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, but it's not as good.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, Serenity was the the was Was Malin Serenity? Did you? Yeah, he was. Of course he was. Yeah, of course he was. Um did you actually know that um because Joss Weddon wrote uh Firefly, didn't you?

SPEAKER_01:

Buffy dollhouse.

SPEAKER_00:

He was actually there were gonna be an episode of Firefly and they were gonna put Spike in it. Oh as Spike.

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I love James. Is it James Masters?

SPEAKER_00:

James Masters, yeah. What a lad. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

What a lad.

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Yes. But um back to the episode, because we do like a tangent or two.

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Witchcraft.

SPEAKER_00:

Witchcraft. So I did I get to that. Oh, yeah, because I started talking about religion, didn't I? So I thought I'd do a few episodes on alternative religions. So I thought I'd do one on witchcraft.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh and paganism, and I've also got one coming up on Voodoo.

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Have you?

SPEAKER_00:

On Voodoo, yes. Which I will not read. I like voodoo.

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I know you like voodoo.

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And uh I do actually have Wicca and uh witchcraft. And I know you're quite witchy as well.

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I am I am witchy in aesthetics.

SPEAKER_00:

You're witchy in aesthetics.

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Not so much in practice, I feel.

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So I look Or am I? I looked at the kind of the the deep history of modern Wicca or how witchcraft has changed from how it was in ancient times to modern wicca.

SPEAKER_01:

Lud's good deep witch.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's like a deep dive into it all.

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So it's we've actually been to a witch museum, do you remember?

SPEAKER_00:

I do, yes. And it's amazing.

SPEAKER_01:

Where?

SPEAKER_00:

Boscastle. Yes in Cornwall.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, it's very good.

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And it's quite sad really because they uh that's where they had the flood. And when you go into the Witchcraft Museum, you can they've still got the line of where the flood water went to.

SPEAKER_01:

Which was above my head, I believe.

SPEAKER_00:

It was, yeah, it was. I mean, you ever look at the YouTube videos of that when that flood hit, it was just my the witches did not protect them then. But did you know that there is a church on the opposite side of the road from the witch museum? Because you remember because the guys said they used to get hate mail from because of the witch museum.

SPEAKER_01:

The hate mail.

SPEAKER_00:

The hate mail which kind of we will come on to and and hate mail. The bit of the the hate, the the hate and the uh shall we say misinformation about witchcraft.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So, because Brit because and I've primarily looked at the UK and Britain, so I've not looked at any other because otherwise it starts getting massive, and this would be a six-parter. Uh, but I'd primarily focus on this episode on Britain because it isn't just that superstition of witchcraft, it is about religion, law, folklore, medicine as well.

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Yeah.

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Medicine, uh, gender, class, and power.

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Dum dum dum dum.

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So I've looked at essentially 3,000 years.

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Have you?

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3,000 years.

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Have you looked at 3,000 years of magical practice?

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I've looked a little bit, yes. Of magical practice in the British Isles, ending I'm gonna end the episode in the UK's unique role in creating modern day Wicca.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm gonna get so many uh tattoo ideas from this episode.

SPEAKER_00:

You probably are, you probably are so the kind of the first time you could argue that magic, witchcraft, all of that kind of came out was that we know of was about 800 BC.

SPEAKER_01:

What were they doing in 800 BC?

SPEAKER_00:

It was the Druids, it was Iron Age Britain, and it was the druids, and the druids were educated elites, basically, within the Celtic tribes, and they were, they were kind of like the judges, the priests, the healers, and of course the diviners. So they were the ones who could predict the future, and they were like the essentially they were kind of like the seers and the like the far not the leader of the tribe, but they were the the strategists. No not not the strategists, but they were like the the older uncle, the ones who people looked to for guidance. Guidance. Right, essentially, yeah, guidance. The advisors, yeah. So Romans, when the Romans kind of came across and started butchering and slaughtering slaughtering everybody, they they one thing the Romans were good at is that they did write things down, yeah. And so there is a you know, we've got some this is where we got a lot of our knowledge from because it's kind of third-hand information because a lot of the druids obviously they would have been killed and they would have done so. This is just what we know about them from the Romans, from what the Romans wrote, and they described that they could see people who were doing sort of like bird um omen omen reading, so it'd be like, oh, there's a flock of birds over there, so that would be a dark sign for this, or you know, or the light is shining on the rock, so or the sun's on the rock, which means we're gonna have a good harvest this year, all that sort of stuff. Yeah. What has been disputed though is that they did write about that the druids did a lot of human sacrifices.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

But it has been disputed by modern day scholars.

SPEAKER_01:

I think I think when it comes to history, like we have to be careful with what we're reading and what we're what we're what we're taking at face value, because often when like history is his story, right? So it's so it's what they've written and what they want their deity to be perceived, not deity, what their what what their higher ups perceive want to be perceived to be in the world. Exactly. So they're probably saying, Oh yeah, the druids did this and the druids did that, but they probably didn't. They just exactly they're just making them out to be horrible when they were.

SPEAKER_00:

Villainising them. Villainising them, yeah. Um because it is you know, history is written by the victor. Yeah and it's as simple as that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So obviously they're gonna talk poorly of the people that they defeated or didn't like.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, of course they are. Of course they are. Uh they also described that they would do weather magic and blessings as well.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

And again, that would be things like rain dances, yeah. You know, things things like that.

SPEAKER_01:

An earthquake happened, oh, it must have been them.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly, exactly that. And uh they also described that there was a lot of herbal healing going on. Yeah. Using of plants like yarrow, mugwart, and mistletoe.

SPEAKER_01:

Very early, um, probably early medicine at this point.

SPEAKER_00:

Early medicine, yeah. Yeah. I actually think we've probably lost a lot of knowledge.

SPEAKER_01:

I think we have as well. I think there's a lot in there's a lot in nature that we could probably harness. Yeah. Um, but of course the artificial roots, they get more money, big farmer gets more money out of it. I don't want to go into big pharma, but I'm just saying.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

That they are profiting off people's illness.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, whereas you could get plants that could you could grow in your own home that would help certain things or certain help certain people, and you're not allowed to because it's illegal.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Let's just leave that there. Um, so there's but because we've got Stonehenge. We we do. You've seen Stonehenge a few times, haven't you?

SPEAKER_01:

We have been to Stonehenge once.

SPEAKER_00:

I say well what we have.

SPEAKER_01:

Me and you and Mum. When we went to Longleat.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, but me and mum me and your mum have been a couple of times.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I've only been once.

SPEAKER_00:

You've only been once. I've been past it a lot. Can you see it from the road? It is quite yeah, you can see it from the A303.

SPEAKER_01:

I I know this is gonna sound really stupid, and I was quite young, so I was quite small. Yeah. I did not expect the rocks to be that big.

SPEAKER_00:

They are huge. And they is They're very tall. They are very tall.

SPEAKER_01:

In pictures, they don't look as tall.

SPEAKER_00:

No, it's a weird vibe as well.

SPEAKER_01:

You need a banana for scale. That's what I'm saying. Like they they don't look that like in pictures, I don't think it looks as impressive as it is a close up. Whereas I hear the opposite from Mount Mount Rushmore. Apparently Mount Rushmore is actually quite small.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

It isn't in like when you when you're close up to it, it's not that big a mountain, but I thought it was a massive mountain face.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Anyway, sorry.

SPEAKER_00:

But yeah, Stone Stonehenge, I mean we've got a sea henge in Norfolk. They recently found that, didn't they? I don't know. With the the wooden structure, very similar. Oh, yeah. But what's interesting about Stonehenge is we're still not 100% sure what it is.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, it its positioning is odd, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00:

It's positioning is very odd. So you could the the sun will come down through the summer solstice and right and and it looks like it's some kind of clock or it's something to map the seasons or something like that.

SPEAKER_01:

But um, fun fact about calendar making so it's it's kind of now very well regarded in in historians that women were actually the creators of a calendar. Because if you think about it, why would men need a 28-day cycle?

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

Why would women need a 28-day cycle? Their menstrual cycle. Well. So it was it was to map out the the the body and why they would need it in that in that way. Um apparently it's more likely to be a woman that created the calendar.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, there were a modern day calendar. There were only 10 months originally.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. Because July and August were added because Julius Caesar and all and all I think this is what pisses me off about the calendar is that we actually could have 13 legitimate same timed months, couldn't we?

unknown:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. We we can have 28-day, 13 months.

SPEAKER_00:

And it would make so much more sense.

SPEAKER_01:

It would.

SPEAKER_00:

It would just be a good one.

SPEAKER_01:

I want 13 months in a year.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, no leap years, no 31 days as September, April, June, and May.

SPEAKER_01:

November.

SPEAKER_00:

No, can you remember that episode of Parks and Wheels?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, my bad. I was like, why are you saying it wrong?

SPEAKER_00:

Um, but it does so but Stonehenge actually predates the Druids. It was there before the Druids. That's how old it is. But no one knows how it got there. Although you keep hearing theories every now and again, but who knows? Who knows? Who knows? So in Scotland and Ireland, Ireland, Ireland, fairies were treated as hu as real beings.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

They were very, very sort of they believed a lot in fairies in Scotland and I think.

SPEAKER_01:

Pixies and Cornwall.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, Pixies and Cornwall. It's the same It's that same sort of the outer parts, the Pictets. Yeah. So Pics and the Britons.

SPEAKER_01:

It it's the same it's the same legend, just told in different ways.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

Which makes me think.

SPEAKER_00:

But they believed that An extinct beast. Exactly, yeah. But they believed that fairies actually uh either blessed or harmed humans depending on uh what you did with them.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh.

SPEAKER_00:

So there you go.

SPEAKER_01:

What like the soul?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, I see.

SPEAKER_00:

The reason why I mentioned fairies is because later witchcraft confessions.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, we'll come on to come on to that. Uh they referenced that they had fairy familiars. So they'd have cats, yeah, black cats, yeah, but also fairies.

SPEAKER_01:

The black cat thing is the thing.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

It was in practical magic.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And apparently, when some of the witchcraft confessions, they would say in there that they received their healing knowledge from the fair folk. Oh, the idea is that the forest people and the fairies were the ones that gave the witches the power.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh and uh gave them also gave them a s what they call a second sight, obviously the ability to the witches. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01:

And I and I do mean with with with quotation mark, were they just medical healers? Some of them were just I imagine that so you would have, say, warts or something, you'd go to a witch and she'd be like, Oh hi, if you use this like leaf in this thing because that's what a potion is, a cold like it's the same thing, isn't it? They're they're healers, they're just yeah, it's just been misconstrued over time because they're like, Oh, we can't, you know, we don't know what this is, and therefore we need to be scared of it, and therefore we're gonna call them witches.

SPEAKER_00:

It goes against God.

SPEAKER_01:

It does go against God, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I promise I made a promise to myself that I was gonna go, wasn't gonna be very anti-religion on this episode, and I'm gonna be careful.

SPEAKER_01:

It is anti-God, sure, if you want to think about it that way, but why wouldn't it be better of a god to make a race that can heal itself? And wouldn't isn't that doesn't that god doesn't that make a better doesn't that make a more better god I can't think uh doesn't that make a god I just ruined my New Year's resolution.

SPEAKER_00:

You have ruined your New Year's resolution.

SPEAKER_01:

Well that well that was quick.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

But I just feel like wouldn't that be a more intelligent god to make a a uh a band of people that can actually help themselves?

SPEAKER_00:

You think so, aren't you? Isn't the whole idea of free will? Isn't that one of those one of the almighty's Yeah? I just don't understand why old Sky Wizard came up with that one.

SPEAKER_01:

I c I can't understand why they why they think certain things are against God. I mean, how far can you go?

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

I would I would argue AI is against God.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

I you know, remember this is back then, it's I know, I know AI is nothing then, but I'm just saying, like, it just feels like it's just a silly silly.

SPEAKER_00:

Anyway, which god are you talking about? You're talking about Old Testament God or New Testament God because they're completely different.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh yeah, yeah. Exactly. There's two different gods as well. But Old Testament God is like, yeah, I'm gonna Yeah, he is he was an angry bastard funny old uh Old Testament gods. Oh New Testament god, he's like, oh, hi. He went to therapy. Yeah. Do you think it's pre and post therapy?

SPEAKER_00:

He's had counselling. Yeah, a little bit of counselling.

SPEAKER_01:

We talked to old Gabriel and was like, hey mate, yeah, yeah, I'm feeling a lot more chill about the world. Okay, let's write a different book then and then smalgamate the two.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, yeah, I gave everyone free will and was like, oh, what oh, hang on, they're building a tower to try and get to me. I'm gonna stop them from doing that. Oh, yeah, they've annoyed me today, so I'm gonna flood the world and kill them all.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, he was he was he had a bad temper. He did have a bad temper, like quick tempered as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, he really was.

SPEAKER_01:

He made brash decisions.

SPEAKER_00:

He did indeed. He did indeed. Let's turn that lot to oh no, can't have Sodom and Gomorrah having fun. Yeah. Jesus wept. Yeah. Oh, um, here you go. How you can have this garden all to yourself, not gonna riddle with temptation, so don't eat that apple.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, oh, look at these hailstones.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, exactly. Get a load of this. Right, yeah. Book of Job. Let's not go there.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Let's not go there.

SPEAKER_00:

Anyway, we're digressing slightly.

SPEAKER_01:

After we said, Oh, we weren't talking about it.

SPEAKER_00:

But then in the 5th to the 11th of centuries, 11th of centuries, 5th to 11th centuries, we had uh kind of Anglo-Saxon magic.

SPEAKER_03:

Ooh.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, and they had things where pagans come in, isn't it? This is where pagans came in, and a lot of it was kind of mixed in as well with Viking. So, of course, the Norse gods, you had the pagan gods, you had the Norse gods, but then this is where Christianity started to creep in as well. So you had the a kind of mix of things, and this is where they're saying like the the witchcraft was more pagan, you know. That was the bad stuff. It's yeah, the pagan gods like Woden, Thor, Odin, all of that. But theoretically, you're right in what you said before. It was a lot of it was just practicing herbal mem remedies.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

That's all it was.

SPEAKER_01:

I think I think when it comes to fertility as well, like there was probably a lot of women who weren't eating properly.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And therefore, that's why when they were st suddenly given vegetables and given like actual greenery, they're like, oh my periods have come back. Oh, now I can get pregnant.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. Well, they they had a they had a ritual, but pagans had a ritual back then called the field remedy, and that would be a ritual to restore fertility to the ground after it had been farmed.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh, and you know, you'd be like giving fertilizing the ground to to make it because a lot of pagans, so this is oh, this is sorry, I'm gonna go on one. But this is where it's like when when we get it' when you think, well, why do we bury people when we're supposed to be going to heaven, which is up there? But that's it's actually a pagan ritual where you would bury people because you're giving them back to the earth.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. To give the body back to the earth because the earth, because they see nature as being you'd think that one, you wouldn't want to bury someone to the ground because we often think of the ground as hell. And also, cremation, you're burning a body, which which is a very hellish thing to do again as well. Like it just does seem a little bit backwards. I'm not really sure where the whole Well, do you know where hell comes from?

SPEAKER_00:

Uh the concept of hell. I can't remember. It's the sinner situation. Yeah, but in the Christian but so hell, hell itself, the word hell is a Norse god. Oh and it is a and she so you live in the sun. No, because you have in you have lots of different heavens, don't you, in in Norse mythology. You've got Valhalla, hell the the ruler of hell was hell. Right. And it was like the peace, tranquil thing. But again, Christians came along and go, Oh no, hell is hell. It's hell. That's how it got distorted and put down underneath. That's that's the history of it, that's how it happened. The fallen, the fallen, yeah. That's how it happened. But yeah, it's burying and giving people to the ground is actually pagan. Yeah, it's going back to the Christmas episode, isn't it? Is it pagan? Is it Christian?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and a mixture of the things. But interestingly enough, early on, they hadn't really thought about oh, let's link it all to the devil and satanic and all of that. With the early witches in the 5th to the 11th century, what they did is they were just saying because their magic is harmful. They there was no direct link to the devil or Satan or Lucifer, Beelzebub, Bullock, whatever you want to call him, the morning star. They were yeah, it was more about fear of of the harmful magic. So there you go.

SPEAKER_01:

Nice.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So for the next 300 years, in the medieval Christian era, yeah. So again, there was lots of magic everywhere, but still not directly correlated with Satan at this point.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

It was still to do, you know, there's just I think they were eyeing them up, they're just watching them, observing, getting ready for it. So the but the church got worried. Of course. The church got worried, and they were going around saying that the witches did not actually have any super ma supernatural powers. Which they probably did not they didn't, and that they were deluded or tricking people. So you can see you can see the narrative starting.

SPEAKER_01:

The twisting it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, you can you can see it starting to happen.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, sorry for these uh healers. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00:

So the church. You're going around basically fake news, yeah, terrible, you know, don't listen to them, they're tricking you, listen to me, I'm the best. All of that. Sorry, I do apologize. It's gonna be one of them days. So uh during that time as well, the harsh punishment uh didn't start coming in just yet. Okay, so again, they're building, they're starting to build, you know, with this kind of you know, it's that they're trying to segregate them a little bit and saying, those people then they're not great. They're trying to trick you, don't listen to them.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

See what those I get you.

SPEAKER_01:

Cunning folk.

SPEAKER_00:

Cunning folk, yes. So what the cunning folk were were kind of like witches as well in within Britain, and they were widespread across the whole of the UK, and they were basically they were healers, told you. Yeah, they were fortune tellers, charm makers, and midwives. So essentially, this is the NHS. This is the NHS, it's early witches, early witches were the NHS, yeah. Yeah, so you got counsellors, yeah, doctors, yeah, nurses, yeah, yep. This is the NHS. This is this is early NHS, yeah. And a lot of communities really, really depended on them, like in especially rural wilds and where we are, in East Anglia. Yes, yes, a lot around here. We are very, we're very kind of our history in this part of the world is quite witchy as well. And uh Scottish Highlands as well, yes, Scotland?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00:

So they were they would use charms, runes, uh herbal cells, prayers, even to a degree, but not praying to they would pray to Mother Nature.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. Uh they would do protective magic circles, and they would also create like little hex bags, which bottles, little bottles to hold curses in.

SPEAKER_01:

So it is very it's almost like they played into the narrative. It's it's labelling theory, isn't it, essentially? People start laying as what they were, and they were like, all right then, we'll lean into it. Yep. Fair enough.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. But most people who actually went to the these healers and these common folk, or the cunning folk, sorry, they were actually just looking for help. Yeah. They're like, I've got these boils, like you said, warts. Aren't we all? Yeah, yeah. You know, I've I've got a rash come up, or I'm feeling a little bit ropey today. Oh eat some mug wart, mix it with with some tea made from mistletoe, and you'll be re in the morning. I mean in the morning.

SPEAKER_01:

If you go to a healer back then with a tight chest, which could have been an anxiety, it could have been a heart attack, whatever it was, yeah, and then they give you something and it helps, then Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but yeah, there was there was no evidence at the time that they ever cursed anybody.

SPEAKER_01:

No, of course not.

SPEAKER_00:

No evidence of that at all. No evidence at all.

SPEAKER_01:

Witches are just misunderstood.

SPEAKER_00:

They were m Wicca, Wicca is is completely misunderstood.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

It's still got that, you know. Even now when you think of Wicca, you think it's like black, like pentagrams and stuff. It's not black. Yeah, a lot of it's white, you know, white witches, and you know that it's it's actually magic. It's actually really, really positive. Really positive. Now, for the next 300 years, this is when it kicked off. So, in fact, 1400s to the 1700s, the witch hunts started.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh dear.

SPEAKER_00:

Yep, and they basically intensified during this period because then it came out like that.

SPEAKER_01:

I think what annoys me about the witch hunts was let's try and kill them. If they don't die, they're a witch.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

But now you've just got loads of dead women.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

The ducking stall is still in Canterbury, I've seen it. It's like it's just so crazy to me that oh no, they died. Oh, we were wrong, but now we're not gonna get punished for it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yep. And I've got some facts about the witch hunting time as well. So this is where the idea of the pacts with the devil came in. They're in league with Satan.

SPEAKER_01:

Satanic.

SPEAKER_00:

Satanic devils.

SPEAKER_01:

Like DD, let's go.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, and it was the mainly the Christian church that started all this off. And they would also blame witches on the plague. They would blame witches for any famine. I think they would blame witches for political instability, basically local feuds, anything that went wrong.

SPEAKER_01:

They could just blame it on them.

SPEAKER_00:

They could blame it on them, which, to be honest, society still does today.

SPEAKER_01:

We blame everything on other people, and it's mostly our fault.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. Yes. So, do you know how many people were killed in Scotland alone between 1560 and 1730?

SPEAKER_01:

I wouldn't even like to guess. I wouldn't even like to guess.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, it's an estimated figure between three and four thousand executed.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So And none of them were like, oh, we were wrong. It was oh, let's find the next one. Oh, that one's dead. Like, how many how many people did they have to kill to realise that this wasn't a thing?

SPEAKER_00:

They were idiots, absolute idiots. So apparently the reason why Scotland was more extreme is because they were they were much more religious at the time. They believed, they genuinely believed that witches had met the devil physically. Jesus. And it was the church courts that held authority over it. Of course. Yeah, of course. And judicial torture was allowed under Scottish law as well. So they would torture them. Yeah. Those poor women. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So in 18 Do you think this was just another way to repress women?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

You didn't hear of any uh male um male witches, warlocks.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, in actual in in in uh so 85% in Scotland of the accused were women.

SPEAKER_01:

Doesn't surprise me.

SPEAKER_00:

85%. So that did you know there was over.

SPEAKER_01:

We were the ones that attempted by the snake. It's always women's fault, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So there was be honest. Seventy women got accused of raising a storm to try and kill James the Sixth.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, what was James the Sixth doing at this time?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, exactly. Well he went out without his coat, apparently.

SPEAKER_01:

So he went without his coat. I mean, does did he deserve it? Is what I'm saying. That's what I'm trying to say.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I'm not sure. I don't know too much about it.

SPEAKER_01:

What's James the Sixth? Uh shall I just put controversy into what Adam's called?

SPEAKER_00:

Uh but going on to England, it wasn't as so it's a bit more legal in England, not as not as barbaric as it was in Scotland in then, but there were still over 500 executions.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean he was into lavish spending, clashes with Parliament over taxation and religion and absolutist tendencies. I think this guy may have deserved the storm. Sorry. Sorry, King James the uh sixth is it pronounced? Oh, and first of England. Oh, he's James First of England.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Oh in England there was over yeah, about five hundred executions.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, he was he was LGBT uh Q plus though.

SPEAKER_00:

Was he?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah He was uh he was ahead of the time on that. He as in as in pro.

SPEAKER_00:

Right, okay, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Anyway.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. But yeah. There's about five hundred executions in England. Jeez. But the reason why there probably weren't as many is because the English courts actually demanded evidence.

SPEAKER_01:

Of course. But then again, you think what the evidence was, I saw her turn a frog into a cat. Okay, and it was a southern western Yeah, I don't know what.

SPEAKER_00:

But that would be that would be if someone would give evidence and said they saw something.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, and then that would probably be that would probably be enough witness testimony.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, which we know is bad. Eyewitness testimony is not good.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Um there was a group called the Pendle Witches in 1612 in Lancashire, and there were 12 accused of witchcraft in one hit. Yeah, and a whole coven then. Yeah, this was a whole coven away. Yeah, and this was quite a famous case because it was based on family rivals.

SPEAKER_01:

Ah, the Montago's and the Capulets.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and that one group accused the others of being witches, and ten of them got executed.

SPEAKER_01:

Eek.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So they got rid of the Capulets. No, there is one man who is very, very famous uh called Matthew Hopkins, and he was known as the Witchfinder General. And the only reason I knew this story of Matthew Hopkins is because it was a hammer film called The Witchfinder General, which I watched when I was very young.

SPEAKER_01:

Too young.

SPEAKER_00:

I was way too young to watch that. Uh, and it had Vincent Price in it, and I think Vincent Price played uh played Matthew Hopkins, Witch Finder General, and it had Ian Ogluby in it as well, who was the original saint.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

And he he alone, Matthew Hopkins, bearing in mind, 500 people, 500 women were killed in England, accused of witches. He was responsible for a fifth of them.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh shit.

SPEAKER_00:

So that's why I called him the witch front.

SPEAKER_01:

He's got a lot on his head then. Yeah, he was a lot of blood on his hands.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, he he killed over 100 women, accused them of witchcraft.

SPEAKER_01:

And I I just I just want to cut in a little bit here. I wonder my mind has already gone to abuse, right? So my mind has gone to I wonder how many husbands got sick of their wives and said, Oh, she's a witch. Just to use as an excuse to marry another person or have a mistress or I wonder just oh women are just so disrespected for our history. It's Andrew, it's it's hard to be a woman. Yeah, I mean, we're better now in this day and age, I guess. Being a woman right now isn't is not as bad comparatively, but oh my goodness, like come on. It's written in the stars. I can't believe that anyone can say, like, go back and look back in history and be like, oh yeah, oh no, it wasn't that bad for women. Like seriously, it was like it's it's so bad, it's so bad. Carry on, sorry.

SPEAKER_00:

But he he would use illegal torture methods, and I think he was he would like watch people for days. You know, he was like he was obsessed. Yeah, this man was absolutely obsessed with hunting witches, made it his habit. Hunting women, hunting women, yeah. You know but the but in Wales and Ireland. Yeah, you'll be pleased to know in Wales and Ireland that wasn't so much as a of a thing. No. The witch the witch uh the witch hunts. They were more accepting. They were more accepting because they they still managed to believe because they didn't have they weren't as close to the church as what Scotland and England were.

SPEAKER_01:

Ironically, Ireland wasn't that close to the church. That sounds crazy to me.

SPEAKER_00:

Well well, you yeah, exactly. Doesn't it? That comes later on. Okay. But yeah, they were still very fairy-based folklore.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, so they still maintained that they still were very expensive. They were like witchcraft and early wicker. Yeah, that's what I was saying. That's cool. Yeah. Good for them. In fact, there was only one confirmed execution in Ireland for witchcraft.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh.

SPEAKER_00:

And it was a lady by the name of Goody Glover.

SPEAKER_01:

That does sound like a witch name.

SPEAKER_00:

The witchy name, yeah. And that was in 1688.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

In Boston.

SPEAKER_00:

And she got killed, actually not in Ireland, but emigrated to Boston, America. Right. Landed on Boston shores. Right, and then got and then got charged with witchcraft.

SPEAKER_01:

I don't think Ireland can be held responsible for that. Ireland can't be holding responsibility. She just happened to be Irish, that's what we're saying.

SPEAKER_00:

She happened to be Irish, yeah. Okay. There you go.

SPEAKER_01:

Damn.

SPEAKER_00:

I've just realised actually how long we've been talking for. And I think this is going to be a two-parter, huh?

SPEAKER_01:

Ah, okay, let's go.

SPEAKER_00:

Because we've got quite a lot to go through. Let's go two-parter. So we've got in 1700, for the next hundred years, up until about 1800s, we had the decline of witch hunting. I think people it took it took them that long to realise actually this isn't great. Yeah, fair enough. This isn't great. So people actually started being a little bit more rational about it.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yay! Yeah. Yippee. Yeah. Who was in power in the 1700s?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So the courts as well were starting to get a little bit more skeptical of the evidence that was being presented.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You know.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, William III. Okay. Yeah, let's go.

SPEAKER_00:

So they started to realize probably that not everyone was telling the truth when Hannah would turn the owl into a cat or vice versa.

SPEAKER_01:

I'll do that later.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

Off camera.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And they started to realize as well that some of the possession cases that were being brought forward was probably starting to be more like mental illness.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, oh, what do you hang on a minute? Actually. She's had the flu for two weeks. That must be Brenda down the road who's casting hexes on her. Let's hang Brenda. So yeah. But in in 1735, they had the what was known as the Witchcraft Act. And that was crucial in the fact that they turned around and said that witches do not exist as part of the Witchcraft Act. What did you think of that one?

SPEAKER_01:

Well.

SPEAKER_00:

But but what it did do is it punished people for pretending to do magic.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, okay. You see what I mean?

SPEAKER_00:

It says witches don't exist, but if you pretend to do it, you could still be. But they tar but the reason why they did that is because they were targeting people who were being fraudulent.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Such as fortune tellers.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Things like that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, taking advantage, mediums, etc. etc.

SPEAKER_02:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm I'm um I'm I'm okay with that. Yeah I'm for this, yeah. Yeah. Because people should not be taken advantage of. However, I can also see the other point of it. If there are there were healers there practicing healing as in as in as a uh to help people, the basically the start of Big Pharma.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I can kind of understand where they're coming from a little bit. However, if someone was actually genuinely helping people, I am wondering whether what where they fell in this.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh but yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

But even witches were witches, Big Farmer. Is that what come full circle?

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Or hoarding mug water mistletoe. Yeah. Yeah. So but there was Or Moderna.

SPEAKER_01:

Sounds like a witch name to be fair. But even though Pfizer.

SPEAKER_00:

Pfizer, yeah. AstraZeneca. Yeah. See, they're all witch names. They are, aren't they? Yeah. But even though that was that was that change in the law, they still people would still, as we do today, you know, still get the you still had that little niggle in the back of your head, what if I what if I have the amethyst rock? What if I get that love charm? What if I, you know, what do I need to do to get that protection against fairies? And there were a couple of people, um, male, men actually, there was a guy by the name of George Pickingill, and he lived in 1824, and he was he still maintained himself as an Essex cunning man, so part of the cunning folk. Okay. And there was another guy called James Murrell, and he was cunning Morrell of Essex.

SPEAKER_01:

He was Why are they all in Essex?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and he was a specialist in exorcism. So if someone was possessed.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Well, we still need some of them in this world.

SPEAKER_00:

But the difference here is he wasn't a Catholic Exorcist or a church exorcist. Oh. He was a witch exorcist.

SPEAKER_01:

Demon Exorcist.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. No, as in as in, you know, he he wouldn't read from the Bible. He would which scripture. It would it what it would it wouldn't be that it would be slay them down with the herbs and the things. Yeah. You think you think of you seen some of the practic you know, seen some films where they like ancient tribes will have their own version of cleansing rituals. He would do that. That's what he would do.

SPEAKER_01:

Do you think he just knew what epilepsy was? And therefore, when anyone was convulsing, he would be like, ah, I know the cure for convulsing. Yeah. That's what I'm just thinking. Like like modern like if you think about when you when you see movies of exorcisms happening in in no matter what religion, they're always having a convulsion, a fit.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

That was epilepsy. So what I'm saying is maybe he just had a drug that stopped you from convulsing, or naturally an epileptic fit was over. I'm just saying. I'm just saying.

SPEAKER_00:

I think because the next section, we're coming onto the Victorian era.

SPEAKER_01:

Bum bum bum.

SPEAKER_00:

And I think if we end the episode here and come into Victorian times on the next one, because the next section is going to be quite long, because I'm going to talk about a guy called Alex Aleister Crowley. Have you ever heard that name?

SPEAKER_01:

Ooh, I know Crowley.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, well, in fact, Crowley from Supernatural Fergal. He the reason why they called Fergus, the reason why they called the character Crowley was because of this guy.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So he yeah, we'll talk about Aleister Crowley. He's a very interesting character. Lovely. Let's end the episode there.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Yeah. Well, thank you for joining us for part one of Witchcraft. Which we didn't know when we first started this episode, so I guess apologies for the first time.

SPEAKER_00:

I didn't realise how much I wrote how much I know about this episode.

SPEAKER_01:

There is a lot here. But if you enjoyed this episode, we have other episodes in the past that are somewhat witchy. There's some witchiness going on and other things, so check us out. We're on YouTube, we're on Spotify, we're on all of those things, which is in the outro, so I don't actually need to say any of this. Um we hope that you have a lovely day and a lovely start to 2026 because that's where we will this episode will be in 2026, even though we're actually we're still in 2025. Which I feel like is a witchcraft in itself.

SPEAKER_00:

Do you know what I did the other day? I've already I've I've I've yeah, I put I've already started putting the wrong date on things.

SPEAKER_01:

Well the thing is you can easily change a five to a six.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So a nice, easy one this year. Not in an email that you send. No, that is true. I mean the written word is lost, I know, but yeah.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Nothing left more to say then. Cue the outro. Thanks for joining us on bonus dad, bonus daughter. Don't forget to follow us on all our socials and share the podcast with someone who'd love it. We are available on all streaming platforms. See you next time. Bye-bye.