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I Swear I Remember That… Until I Don’t

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Memory isn’t a hard drive. It’s a storyteller that edits, trims, and fills gaps every time we press play. We put that idea to the test with Bartlett’s War of the Ghosts, a famously slippery folk tale that reveals how the brain swaps canoes for boats, inserts ghosts that never glow green, and confidently recalls details that were never said. The result is honest, human, and often wrong—and that’s the point.

We dig into reconstructive memory and schemas, the mental blueprints that help us make sense of messy life events. You’ll hear how stress narrows attention, why each recall subtly rewrites the past, and how two people can share a moment yet leave with different “truths.” From Loftus and Palmer’s work on leading questions to the social power of repeated stories and the “lost in the mall” effect, we unpack why eyewitness confidence does not equal accuracy. Along the way, we share personal moments of shock, “work mode,” and humour-as-coping that show how trauma shapes what sticks and what fades.

It’s not all pitfalls. We map out practical ways to remember better: focus your encoding, use elaborative rehearsal to connect new ideas to what you know, chunk information into meaningful groups, lean on spaced repetition, and turn lists into stories with vivid mnemonics. None of this makes memory perfect; it makes it more intentional. If you’ve ever argued over who said what, sworn a detail was true, or watched a childhood favourite and wondered how your mind got the colours so wrong, this one’s for you.

If this conversation resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend who loves psychology, and leave a quick review to tell us your most surprising memory mix-up.

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SPEAKER_01:

Hello and welcome to Bonus Dad.

SPEAKER_02:

Bonus Daughter, a special father-daughter podcast with me, Hannah.

SPEAKER_01:

And me, Davy, where we discuss our differences, similarities, share a few laughs and stories. Within our ever-changing and complex world.

SPEAKER_02:

Each week we will discuss a topic from our own point of view. And influences throughout the decades.

SPEAKER_01:

Or you could choose one by contacting us.

SPEAKER_02:

Via email, Instagram, Facebook, or TikTok. Links in bio. Hello! And welcome to another special episode of Bonus Dad, Bonus Daughter. Just in case you forgot where we were. Forgot where you were. Why would I mention that? Because this episode is all about memory.

SPEAKER_01:

Alright, Darren Brown. Memories. All along with it. We just sang that.

SPEAKER_02:

And then we couldn't remember the next line.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it is from Cats. I knew it was from Katz. Elaine Page sang that song. Elaine Page. Elaine Page. An amazing vocal. I mean you you've never heard of Elaine Page.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, I've heard of Ellen Page, Elliot Page.

SPEAKER_01:

No, no, no. This is Elaine Page. Elaine Page. Elaine Page. Listen to her.

SPEAKER_02:

Are they related?

SPEAKER_01:

No. Oh. No. Um, no, she she is an amazing vocalist. Amazing vocalist. Did a lot of Andrew Lloyd Weber stuff. Did chess as well. Love chess. Not because the musical. The musical.

SPEAKER_02:

The chess, the game is okay or something.

SPEAKER_01:

Do you know the song One Night in Bangkok? One Night in Bangkok in the world's your oyster.

SPEAKER_02:

No.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, that came from chess.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. In case you'd forgotten what this episode's about, because Davy, of course, has gone off on a tangent as per usually. And it's still Saturday. We're not recording on a Sunday. We're going to do an episode all about memories. Now.

SPEAKER_01:

Actually, just before this one is a little bit different to other episodes. The reason being is because normally Hannah hasn't read the script. This one. Hannah wrote the script. Hannah wrote the script. And I haven't read the script. So I'm a little bit at my depth.

SPEAKER_02:

At your depth. Yeah, I wrote this episode. I actually wrote this episode about a year ago. We recorded this episode. No, we then recorded this episode a year ago. Oh yes. And then we lost this episode a year ago. So we needed enough time for this to pass for us to do this episode again so that you wouldn't remember the memory test.

SPEAKER_01:

That's right.

SPEAKER_02:

This is all uh this is all being very poorly explained by the. I remember now. You remember it now, yeah. So so yeah, I decided to write this episode on memories and basically test your your memory.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Essentially. Memories are rubbish. That is how I want to preface this episode, and it is the note we all end on that human memory is so bad because memory for humans is not something that's in a computer when you save a farm, it's exactly how you wrote it and saved it. Our memory does this really cool thing. It's it's reconstructive. Our memory is reconstructive as opposed to reproductive, meaning that we don't completely reproduce what we remember. Our minds kind of make up a bit of the narrative a little bit.

SPEAKER_01:

It fills in gaps. It doesn't indeed it it doesn't, it's not a lack of video. And when you remember as well, again, going into the realms of psychology.

SPEAKER_03:

Please do.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, when you remember, you don't but when your mind replays things back, it doesn't also replay it back the same time and time again. It will change each time.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so even so how you remember something yesterday will be different to how you remember it today.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, which I think is um the root cause of many domestic arguments. He said this, she said that. Oh, I didn't say that. Well, you actually did say that.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, Black Mirror, brief history of you.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah. Um, so today I want to focus on a particular psychologist that um talked about memory in great detail and studied memory in great detail. His name is Frederick Bartlett. I think he was born in 1932. I don't know why I put that date in there, that just seemed relevant. Um he's a Cambridge psychologist, so he's actually from Ironick of the Woods, Cambridge.

SPEAKER_01:

Cambridge. What accent was that?

SPEAKER_02:

I mean that was a Norfolk one, but Ironneck of the Woods.

SPEAKER_01:

It was kind of a pirate version of a pirate version of Pirate Cambridge.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I was in Durham actually last week. This week? This week I was in Durham last week.

SPEAKER_01:

You eat Haygetting on. That's more of a Norfolk accent.

SPEAKER_02:

That is more of a Norfolk accent, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Although I I went a little bit west country there, as well. Yeah, you did. Yeah. Isn't it funny how the Norfolk accent and the Bristol accent are very similar, despite being opposite ends of the country?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Isn't that very strange?

SPEAKER_02:

It's because all the middle people went into the middle. So the outskirts got the oh yeah, no. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Anyway, um did you know, did you know you can have you can have a conversation with somebody in the world?

SPEAKER_02:

The one time I want an actual so to myself, and he just butts in all the time.

SPEAKER_01:

This is why I don't have my own appetite. But did you know that you could have a conversation in Norfolk, in Norfolk speak, with someone else from Norfolk using only two words and it completely makes sense.

SPEAKER_03:

Go on.

SPEAKER_01:

Do that do that, that do. Everyone in Norfolk will know what that means.

SPEAKER_02:

I actually do know what that means.

SPEAKER_01:

Do that do that, that do. Two words.

SPEAKER_02:

Do that do that? That do.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Forget it, I get it.

SPEAKER_01:

Anyway, back to memory. Sorry, I'll shut up.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. So Frederick Bartlett basically uh took a Native American folklore story and used this as a basis to essentially tell people how shit memory is. And essentially he he read out this story and then asked people to recall as many details as they possibly could from this story. And I have that story here today. It's called War of the Ghosts.

SPEAKER_01:

I will just caveat as well, just before you do this, that although I did do psychology, I did not do anything, I didn't really do a lot about memory, so I was not aware of this.

SPEAKER_02:

You were not aware of this.

SPEAKER_01:

I do not know this study, so just.

SPEAKER_02:

But you did because we recorded this episode, did you record?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, we did. But I but I didn't do the study. I know you didn't study the study. You didn't study the study on this. I didn't, I didn't.

SPEAKER_02:

Um but essentially, just to explain a little bit of background on on um the idea of this story is that it's actually supposed to be a little bit confusing. It's supposed to be difficult to remember. That's the design of it. And it basically the reason the reason that it's complicated to uh to remember and understand is because life is complicated to remember and understand as well. And our brain will fill in some of the gaps, um, and they call these schemas, which are basically like context cues of if if, for example, I was going to tell a story about me going to a swimming pool, it's very likely that you would probably remember that I got a little bit wet from going in the swimming pool. Basically, that's kind of the kind of the thing. It would be odd if I went to a swimming pool and didn't get wet. You know, I'm putting this as plainly terms as possible. Um But anyway, are you ready to hear for the second time?

SPEAKER_01:

For the second time.

SPEAKER_02:

For the second time in two years, this story. So this is called War of the Ghosts. Are you ready?

SPEAKER_01:

I am indeed.

SPEAKER_02:

So Davy is not allowed to write anything down. No. It's not even allowed to.

SPEAKER_01:

I will actually I will just prove as well that my my iPad is off and it's on the counter.

SPEAKER_02:

The only preconceived idea that you have going into this is that you know I'm gonna test your memory. So there's a part of Davy that you're gonna think, ah right, I've got to try and remember these bits. Yes. So which kind of actually makes this test a little bit pointless, but we're just gonna do it anyway for funsies.

SPEAKER_01:

But also it it's into and again, like we said in the last episode, this is interesting about how people's minds work because I've mentioned again in the previous episode episode about us not having an inner monologue and how my brain works and what I see, and how I will visualize things rather than the words. So that's uh another kind of weigh in on this on this particular test.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, indeed.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, go for it.

SPEAKER_02:

Ready. This is called War of the Ghosts. One night two young men from Ugulac went down to the river to hunt seals, and while they were there it became foggy and calm. Then they heard war cries, and they thought, maybe this is a war party. They escaped to the shore and hid behind a log. Now canoes came up and they heard a noise of paddles, and saw one canoe coming up to them. There were five men in the canoe, and they said, What do you think? We wish to take you along. We are going up the river to make war on the people. One of the young men said, I have no arrows. Arrows are in the canoe, they said. I will not go along, I might be killed. My relatives do not know where I have gone, but you but you, he said, turning to the other, may go with them. So one of the young men went, but the other returned home. And the warriors went up the river to the town on the other side of the Kamala. The people came down the water and they began to fight, and many were killed. But presently the young man heard one of the warriors say, Quick, let us go home. The Indian has been hit. Now he thought, Oh, they are ghosts. He did not feel sick, but he said that they had been shot. So the canoes went back to Yugulak, and the young man went ashore to his house and made a fire. And he told everyone and said, Behold, I accompanied the ghosts, and we went to fight. Many of our fellows were killed, and many of those attacked us were killed. They said I was hit, and I did not feel sick. He told it all, and then he became quiet. When the sun rose he fell down, something black came out of his mouth, his face became contorted, the people jumped and cried. He was dead.

SPEAKER_01:

And that's the end of the story. That's the end of the story. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

So now I'm gonna ask you a few questions.

SPEAKER_01:

Go for it.

SPEAKER_02:

Bearing in mind you know that you had to try and remember some of this.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. So what happened at the start of the story?

SPEAKER_01:

Two men went down two men went down to the river to go hunting seals.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. Do you remember what the weather was?

SPEAKER_01:

Foggy.

SPEAKER_02:

And calm? It was foggy and calm. Very good memory. Uh where were the young men from?

SPEAKER_01:

Um Uruguay. I can't remember what you said, but it spends with you it sounded a little bit like Uruguay, but but but there was a lac in there as well.

SPEAKER_02:

It was Ugulac, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Remember my pronunciation of places is not the best.

SPEAKER_02:

Why did they go to the river?

SPEAKER_01:

To hunt seals.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, they did. Most people would probably input something like fish. Because seals aren't generally found on a river.

SPEAKER_01:

So now when you said that, I had the image of seals in my head. Seals. Seals.

SPEAKER_02:

Seals are cute, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01:

They are cute.

SPEAKER_02:

What did they hear that made them hide?

SPEAKER_01:

They heard the sound of the canoes.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh yes. They uh no, sorry. No, they didn't. Not the not the noise of the canoes. That came a little bit later. Do you know what they heard?

SPEAKER_01:

Uh rustling.

unknown:

No.

SPEAKER_02:

But it's interesting that you put that because they hid behind a log, so that was your schema coming into play.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

You were like rustling, ooh, logs in leaves. Yeah. No, they heard war cries.

SPEAKER_01:

They heard war cries. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02:

War of the ghosts. Uh, is this linear?

SPEAKER_01:

Are you asking you're not asking these questions linear? I'm going, oh, okay, this is interesting. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Who did they meet and what were they asked to do?

SPEAKER_01:

They met five men.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh and they were asked to go to battle or go to war.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

That's pretty much it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh what did the one of them say about his arrows?

SPEAKER_01:

He'd left them in the canoe.

SPEAKER_02:

Not quite.

SPEAKER_01:

They were hidden in the canoe.

SPEAKER_02:

No, so he said, I don't have any arrows, and they said, Oh, don't worry, we've got some in the canoe.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh right, okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

But you were close, you were close, you were close. What happened when they went up river?

SPEAKER_01:

Uh they they saw the battle and they st they realized that they were ghosts.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. But but but what was probably the most prolific thing that happened?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, one of them went back home.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

One stayed in the boat.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. But what happened to him?

SPEAKER_01:

He was shot.

SPEAKER_02:

He was shot.

SPEAKER_01:

He was shot by an arrow.

SPEAKER_02:

But he didn't feel sick.

SPEAKER_01:

But he didn't feel sick. But black stuff came out of his mouth.

SPEAKER_02:

What made the young man think that they were ghosts?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh. Oh, I can't remember. Oh, they were they they didn't they not shine green?

SPEAKER_02:

Not at all.

SPEAKER_01:

Really? I had this image in my head when you said about ghosts that they were they were like green and ether-like.

SPEAKER_02:

No, never mentioned in the story.

SPEAKER_01:

That's the image that I had in my head.

SPEAKER_02:

You've basically got Ghostbusters on your mind there.

SPEAKER_01:

Not Slimer.

SPEAKER_02:

You've got Slimer on your mind.

SPEAKER_01:

No, actually the image that I had in my head was the uh Skippy-Doo. No, no, the ghost from Lord of the Rings. When Aragorn goes and gets that's the image that I had of the ghostly battle.

SPEAKER_02:

What did I ask you? Uh what made the young men think they were ghosts? It's not actually kind of mentioned. The people came down the river and they began to fight, and many were killed, but presently the young man heard one of the warriors say, Quick, let's go home. The Indian has been hit. Now he thought, Oh, they're ghosts. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

See, it's not actually mentioned that made them talk about ghosts.

SPEAKER_02:

I was just trying to activate your schemas.

SPEAKER_01:

So there you go. But you kind of you kind of did.

SPEAKER_02:

I did. Because you were like, oh, they're green. I never mentioned green.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. So that worked.

SPEAKER_02:

How did the story end?

SPEAKER_01:

The story ended with the guy dying, the young man dying because the black stuff came out of his mouth.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, indeed. Indeed. Was there anything of the story that confused you?

SPEAKER_01:

No.

SPEAKER_02:

Really? It's a very confusing story.

SPEAKER_01:

No, genuinely not. Because because again, I could when you were saying it. I think you're the wrong person to do this test. When you were saying it, I was picturing, I can picture the men down at the boat, I can picture the seals, I can picture the canoes.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Because a lot of people change the canoes to boats, because again, boats on a river.

SPEAKER_01:

Interestingly, interestingly, when you first said canoes, the first thing that popped into my head was like the Canadian canoes that you get.

SPEAKER_02:

I picture those as well. Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

But then when you said Indian, the image of the canoes changed to the old Native American style canoes that they would have had.

SPEAKER_02:

With multiple people on the water.

SPEAKER_01:

With multiple people on them. That image did change in my head. Now, when when when the battle happened, so uh the image that I had in my head of when they had when they had a battle, I had this image of these canoes kind of going to the side like that full on, when then firing arrows at the shore and the arrows kind of flying back, and was like a mid a a sea-land battle.

SPEAKER_02:

Right, I got you.

SPEAKER_01:

That's that's what the image that I had in my head.

SPEAKER_02:

I see.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And can you remember what the river was called?

SPEAKER_01:

No. Was it you didn't call it? There wasn't a name.

SPEAKER_02:

I did. Was that and the Warriors went up the river to a town on the other side of Kalama?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, Kalama, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_02:

So the river wasn't called that, but um it often asks. Basically, so the the place names change generally when people start to recall the story, although you actually accurately said Ugulac. You forgot about Kalama, but it's again, they are obscure names. They're hard to remember. They're difficult. It's not like it's not like it was called Washington, for example, which is a very commonplace name. Um, you know, uh the Queen's Head as a pub name, you know, you expect it to be to call the Queen's Head, but if it was called like the octopus's arms, well actually that's quite rememberable because it's a bit weird, but you get my point. You're more likely to choose a a pub name that's you know in this place a place name. Uh that's that's likely to be kind of more fitting to what you know culturally. Um a lot of people turn the canoes into boats, as I mentioned. A lot of people forget this is a ghost story.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So they drop the ghosts, but it was interesting that you I didn't even prompt you and you mentioned the ghosts when I Yeah. About the green stuff. And like you said, reordering events or simplifying the cause and effect, I did not change the order once.

SPEAKER_01:

You didn't?

SPEAKER_02:

Nope. I asked them in order.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

I didn't must mess them about or muck them about, but the story almost doesn't feel linear because it's because of the way it's written. Yeah. Um so again, this this uh doesn't help when people are trying to recall the story. So that so your brain reshaped and fit kind of added a few details in to try and make you understand. The ghost, for example, they were never green, I never mentioned that.

SPEAKER_01:

I had a film in my head.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Essentially, as you were reading that, I had a film in my head that as as it was as it was happening.

SPEAKER_02:

You combined partial truth, you remembered that they were ghosts, but with your imagination. So, yeah, that's called reconstructive memory, as I mentioned before. Yeah. Um now, Bartlett, as I mentioned, he was from Cambridge, so he's got very westernized view of this story as well. But this is Native American folklore. So to a Native American, this folklore might not sound so obscure.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so I actually did have that. So in it when it was almost like when you verified the fact that it was Native American at that point, because you said Indian. Obviously, Indian, I know we it Indian isn't a word anymore, it's like they're Native Americans, but obviously grew up with that word in my head. I did change the canoe. Yeah, it it morphed into that store, that Native American story.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. It's interesting that you chose that Indian as opposed to someone from India.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

As well. Again, never mentioned other than Native American folklore. Um, that again changed changed your bias on it. But it's it's it's a story that is supposed to be confusing, and when you recall it back, I think I remember when I first studied this, thinking I I remember my teacher reading out this to me, so I didn't have it in script form like this. I remember her reading it out, and then I I remember just like turning to like my mate in class and going, What the heck was that? Was I supposed to be writing notes? Like it was it was one of those moments like what did I just hear? It just sounded like absolute madness. And we had very similar questions that were proposed back to us, like, oh, what can you recall from these things? And I'd made up half the story, you know. I'd again I'd change canoes to boats, I'd change lots lots of different things in the story. And I think this is where I kind of want to touch on how how rubbish our our our memory is when it comes to say, for example, eyewitness testimony.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

When we see a crime, usually it's an emotionally triggered event. Um it's normally um you're in a state of stress, you're not in a state where you're trying to remember the details because it's happening in the moment, and yet eyewitness testimony is used pretty much to put most criminals away. And it's not reliable. It's not reliable. There's a there's a famous study called Los Loftus and Palmer where they basically suggested that sometimes without meaning so, the police were using leading questions to get people to say certain things and recall things a little bit differently. For example, if you were to say, um if I was to tell you, David, that I had a car accident last week and my windscreen got smashed, you're thinking, Oh gosh, she must have been going pretty fast for her windscreen to smash like that. If I said, Oh, I got a crack in my windscreen, you'd think, oh, stone hit it, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's it's it's the language.

SPEAKER_02:

It's the language that's being used was influencing the way that an eyewitness was recalling the events of a crime, which is quite problematic if you're trying to if if you're trying to persecute someone or get the right facts in place. You know, that car may have been only going 20 miles an hour, but someone in a state of stress might think that was going 50 miles an hour. You know, there's there's a difference in in how he is and how unreliable we are as humans when it comes to recalling memories. So the next time you're in an argument with your spouse, um just remember all this that you're probably not remembering it correctly either. And neither are they.

SPEAKER_01:

It's interesting when you say about interviews because I do do interviews.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

And it is about asking you you can the the question that you ask does lead people down a certain way. And you have to be so neutral. And there are there are you have you have to learn how to interview somebody or when you're talking to somebody and not let add those questions such as, you know, tell me in your own words what happened.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Nothing, you know, you you can't oh what what were what were they wearing? Or you can there's certain things that you can say which will automatically send somebody down that path. Because also people tend to question their own memory. So if you ask a certain question as a a question a certain way, people will then think, well, actually I remember it like that, but then you're thinking, well, now I've remembered that wrong. So I'm actually gonna almost subconsciously, unconsciously go down that route that I've just been Yeah, because you don't want to be seen as a liar as well.

SPEAKER_02:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

So you're you're reaffirming what that other person said through just through language used, and it is completely unconscious.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it's unconscious on both parties sometimes, I think. You know, I'm not I'm not saying I'm not for one moment saying that the the police are making people say things to prosecute someone, I'm not saying that at all. It's it's totally an un uh you know a subconscious uh word choices that that lead us down certain routes. This story highlights that, you know, we were bringing in uh just going back to the ghost, you mentioned they were green, again, that was not mentioned in the story, but you already have a preconceived idea of what you think a ghost looks like.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I had like because I was in your head. Exactly, because it was a battle.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And that was the first ghost battle that popped into my head was that scene with Aragorn coming out with all the the ghosts and attacking that and that but then I kind of my mind kind of shifted that image using that source material and placed it in the setting that you were saying.

SPEAKER_02:

I remember another study that I um when when when learning about memory uh memory recall as well, there was a study that was done where they made basically people believe that when they were younger they got lost in a mail.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Um and and this the the study is called Lost in the Mail Study, and essentially they they m they took in the history of the people, made sure that they had never got lost in a mail, and then got a family member to recall that story, and they're like, Oh yeah, no, I do remember actually getting lost in a mail once. Yeah, now now that you mention it, yeah, actually that does ring a bell or something like that. But it never happened. You know, our our memories are so influenced by other people that we deem to trust as well, that sometimes that's where things can get a little bit muddled as well. And I you know, when it when it comes to someone telling a story, you know, I could have I could have I could have added ad libbed and added a few bits into the story just to see if you'd pick up on them. I didn't, but I could have done, you know, I could have influenced that. And some people again do that subconsciously, some people do it consciously, which is kind of quite manipulative in a sense. But you know, if we if we think that everyone's lovely and everyone doesn't manipulate anyone's memories.

SPEAKER_01:

Um Well, well, there is uh I mean famously Darren Pratt, I remember mentioned Darren Pratt and early on, there's a thing called neurolinguistic programming, yeah, NLP, yeah. Where where you can you can actually get somebody to do something or say something by certain words that you say, because you're putting that word, you're putting that intention into their head, and you can That's how a lot of mentalists do their job, isn't it? Yeah, and it's you know, it's you know, give you an example, right? If uh I mean this is a very crude version of neurolinguistic programming, but if I was to say to you, if I wanted you to draw a boat, right, I could turn around and say, I don't know, let so I'd I'd I want you to think of a think of an object, any object. Let that sail into your brain.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, that that object, let that let that, you know, again, because I use the word sail.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

That's that's an idea of using neurolinguistic programming. So I'm saying a certain word that puts an uh in a roundabout kind of way, an image into your head. That's that's uh it's it's more complicated than that. But that's a very crude way of saying it.

SPEAKER_02:

A lot of um a lot of mentalists, a lot of magicians use uh touch. So when they're pushing cards and they're asking you to make a choice, they'll go, which one? This one or this one? And they'll touch the one that you want. Again, this is in very crude terms. Yeah. Um, or if you haven't chosen the correct one, they will mm they will manipulate the board so it looks a little bit confusing, like, oh, did that one just go with that pack or did that one go in that pack? And and a very clever way of kind of using how poor our memory is and how poor our attention span is as well to uh to make it look like it's magic. Yeah. And I think it it's interesting when we talk about memory. When I think of memory, I think of my childhood memories and I think, what can I remember?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh nothing. I really struggle to remember anything in my childhood, to be honest. It's a it's a real struggle up here. It's a it's a bit of a mess. But it's it it's strange how one person can perceive something, and then when you're told something else, you're like, oh, do you know what? I thought I was a bit older when that happened. Or you know, I thought, cool, I thought that happened when I was when I was 15. I was only 10. Like it just, you know, it's just silly little things like that. And you sometimes when when your own memory is questioned like that, you do. I think you mentioned you touched on this before, but you get a bit defensive. You're like, no, actually, no, that's not how I remember it at all.

SPEAKER_01:

And you think that your world is the most uh infallible world, and but also you you know, you you could have two people having the same experience, but you both remember it differently, and that's just because you're looking at it from a different perspective.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, the six and the nine.

SPEAKER_01:

The six and the nine, yeah, yeah. And you know, you might be focusing on one aspect, and that's the biggest aspect to that, and someone else might be focusing on another aspect. But the interesting thing is as well, if you were to talk about that later on down the line, the two of you together, through your shared experiences, you will probably both come up with a completely different memory of that same event, which will then be a shared memory, false memory, a false false memory of that event.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And that's kind of how it goes. One one interesting test that you can do yourself as well, and I've done this not on purpose, but it's just kind of happened. You know when you say about remembering something from your childhood? Think about something that you maybe watched on telly when you were a kid. Could be, you know, something where you have a specific memory of how I don't know, how amazing a program was or something and watch it now. Yeah, watch it again, and you will realise what the image that you had in your head of that is completely different from reality. High school musical for me. Yeah, completely different reality.

SPEAKER_02:

It's so shit, and I love that. Yeah, it's so shit. I don't know why you let me watch that.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, high school music.

SPEAKER_02:

That absolute trash. You liked you liked you you you liked it at the time. I d I did, but why? It's absolute trash. The acting is so poor.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, it is.

SPEAKER_02:

It's so bad. Yeah, but yeah, no, there are things I think there's there's things that come with maturity as well, which is probably makes my point a little bit moot because I'm now watching high school music as an adult and I'm like, mm-hmm. Yeah, it's not that great. But I just can't. I I think I think what annoys me about maturing and it when it comes to memory as well is that people will still stick with their younger self's perception of something.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And that annoys me because I've changed a lot since then, and how I perceived that then, I liked it, then I don't like it now. But then that's okay.

SPEAKER_01:

When you say about your childhood and and and remembering things, now when I think there are certain memories in my head when I think about I don't know, so think about so what what did you do when you were five years old? The same image will pop into my head for the same scene, for the same thing that I did.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh really?

SPEAKER_01:

So no matter what, it would be and it'll be in there. Now I'll guarantee that that image in my head probably isn't what happened. No, probably not isn't what happened at all. Yeah. I mean, if you were to say to me, like just then, I thought about five years old, one image has popped into my head, and I don't know why. I do not know, but it's it's me kicking a football at the bottom of the stairs at Daisy Hill, where my auntie's house was with my where I'm going to see my auntie and my cousin John. Just me kicking a football at that wall. It wasn't anything specific, you know, there wasn't anything special about that day. Nothing happened that day, but for some reason that image is stored is what it is, is is in that brain. And I can remember I can remember the ball, I can remember what I was wearing, I can remember what this weather was like. But can I?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that's the thing. Like I don't I don't think I can confidently remember to that level of detail anything from my childhood of that of that yeah, uh, what's the word? Cleanness. I don't know what else to clarity. But that clarity, like how I I don't understand how you can recall that so vividly.

SPEAKER_01:

It's vivid. I can I can s close my eyes, I can see the image in my head. It's there. That's crazy. It's there.

SPEAKER_02:

See that there? Nah. I'm in a different I'm in a different boat entirely. Yeah. Canoe, if you will.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Um Well you know, I actually I'll give I'll give you a really good example. I'll give you a really good example of that. You know I've mentioned in the previous episode about Tells of the Unexpected?

SPEAKER_03:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

And it was filmed in Norwich. Yeah. Remember I told you I saw them filming it. Yeah. Yeah? Right. I've got an image in my head of what I saw that day. Now I know it was a TV show and the camera's showing it from a different angle, but when I watched that scene a few, well, say a few months ago, it's probably longer than that. It's probably about four or five years ago. When I saw that scene again, that's not what I saw.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

That is not what I saw, that what is in my head of that memory at all of what what is on Tales of the Unexpected.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Not at all.

SPEAKER_02:

See, that's it's it's yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I can actually do it memories of shit. Do you know what the funny thing is as well, is I can remember because I moved away from I moved away from Norwich to go up to Sleaford when I was six years old. Now my my childhood memories of Norwich up until I was six are much more vivid and are a much more there's More of them of that period of time of my life than what there is between six and twelve.

SPEAKER_02:

Is that because of your well-being at the time of experiencing the Norwich was easier to remember because it was let's say the word happier compared to Oh right, there was trauma. Yeah, I'm not I'm sorry, I'm not trying to I'm not trying to uh goat you here. I'm uh what I'm trying to say is that I think there are a lot of lot of factors that make memory retrieval difficult and trauma response is one of them.

SPEAKER_01:

I think that probably is I probably have blocked out quite a lot.

SPEAKER_02:

I wasn't trying to out you, but I was also thinking there's probably an answer there. But yeah But yeah, I I struggle with I I struggle with a lot of my younger younger memories entirely, and I feel like I only really remember from from you onwards. But again, yeah, it's like it's kind of like it's it's kind of like six onwards, and I'm like, okay, like I can I can start to remember. Like I remember that time when we were crossing the road and you said go. And I thought when I I thought you said go cross the road, but you actually said no, yeah, and I walked across the road. I honestly thought I I had a I've you know you know when you have like a And I remember thinking that you were upset with me for not listening, no but that's not what happened, I just didn't hear you properly.

SPEAKER_01:

No, I was not upset with you, I was terrified. I thought you were gonna die.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Um and it but the funny thing is about about that is that you know you have the the you have the fight or flight response. Flight, flight, fight or freeze. Normally I I am a kind of fight response with things. You froze. I froze. Yeah. I literally froze. I did not know what to do. I I had all these, I had like worst case scenario in my head, and how that car missed you, I do not know to this day. I thought I honestly thought you were gone. Yeah. And that that's a traumatic experience, bring brain in my head.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I remember I remember that memory very clearly thinking that I was going to be in trouble.

SPEAKER_01:

No, you weren't in trouble. I was terrified.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. But I think you realised you must have realized that I didn't hear you properly. Oh, yeah, I did. Because I would never have normally done that. I wouldn't have gone against what you'd said. There was no need for me to have gone against what you said. But I remember my my response, my trauma response to that was I've done something wrong. And I hadn't, you know.

SPEAKER_01:

Um it's not my trauma response to that was. I think every time after that I picked you up and carried you across the road.

SPEAKER_02:

I think you did. I think you did, yeah. Up until I was like 15.

SPEAKER_01:

Like I remember your mum telling me at one point. You gotta stop picking her up and carrying her across the road. I was like, but she ain't gonna die.

SPEAKER_02:

Slightly cared. Um but yeah, it's it's it's it's interesting how uh I think how childhood memories uh I think that's probably a topic of conversation for another episode entirely because we could we could go on. But yeah, I think there are there are certain that's what I mean when it comes to eyewitness testimony and things like that. You you are in a trauma response state generally. When you've witnessed a crime, it's normally pretty bad. So anything from um it could it might not even be crime. I'm not I'm not um, you know, it could be it could be a natural disaster, it could be anything like that. It doesn't necessarily mean that something's done something wrong, it's just traumatic to you.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. But you've gotten what you're gonna say now, aren't you?

SPEAKER_02:

No, actually, I thought I'd just move on to kind of how we can improve our memories. Okay. I thought we uh we could we could touch on a few like quick quick tips. Okay. If anyone listening and wanting to improve their memory. So memory works in three ways. You encode, it's very, very kind of um very computer-y-ish. Yeah you encode, you store, and then you retrieve. So encoding is when it's happening with you, you're you're experiencing this thing, and it's it's it's essentially making the pathways in your brain it's it's it's it's essentially making the memory. The memory is forming in your brain. Storage, self-explanatory, but basically, um where it's being stored, uh your memory is then stored. You've got several um areas of storage in the city.

SPEAKER_01:

C drive, D drive, L drive.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, let's use computer terminology because you've got the you've got the conscious, the subconscious, and then you've got the nitty-gritty stuff that you try not to remember. Um right in the vault. The vault. Um yeah, so there are there are uh also apparently three um three areas. Memories that that come immediately to your mind are more likely to be in your conscious. This is something like um um blah blah blah blah blah two plus two is four, just native kind of primal, primal memory um things like that. Uh the stove is hot, me no touchy, Bernie Bernie. That's kind of your your primitive, primitive memory responses there. And um one of the first uh what is it, one of the first responses that we're born with is the the falling response. So when you're a child, you will see children put out their arms even though they've never fallen over before, but they still instinctively do that. That's kind of one of them kind of memories that sit there. Very, very, very quick to to um grab hold of from the retrieval storage facility of your brain. Um then you've got your kind of use use your mid mid-range ones. This is like your telephone number. I remember every single bloody mobile phone and phone number I've ever had in my life, and it really annoys me. Don't say them outside.

SPEAKER_01:

That one six oh three six one three.

SPEAKER_02:

Why are you saying that one? I hope that's an old number that no one has.

SPEAKER_01:

You can't give you can't give them some number from from when I was five years old. Yeah. Still in there.

SPEAKER_02:

It's still in there. Why are they still in there? This is any memories that in inside out, for example, any um autogles repair, autoclest replace, any of those like memories, that's where they all fall in there, those stupid memories that you don't need immediately, but they're just f in there and niggly and annoying. Like go compare, oh yeah, Calgary, uh, washing machines last longer with Calgon. They're all in there, they're all there. And then you've got the vault.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh 800 double 1066.

SPEAKER_02:

Why do we remember that?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And then you've got the vault. Now the vault is the vault where the dark stuff lives. No, it's not necessarily the dark stuff, it's just the stuff that you don't need to recall all the time. Um, but also can make up quite a bit of your psyche and your subconscious and your unconscious, and you mean all that bad. Yeah. All that's all that joke. Yeah, so you've got recap. You've got the conscious, the subconscious, and then you've got the unconscious. And that's how they believe how memories are stored in those in those certain areas. Bad memories can manifest in all sorts of silly, stupid things that our bodies do. We can have trauma responses, we can have anxiety attacks, panic attacks, we can have anything from that. We can have PTSD, flashbacks, trauma responses. I'm literally just listening to this off the top of my memory. Um I'm using my memory to retrieve all of these things, but yes, that's where all of those kind of trauma responses lie. Um, supposedly, this is the general, general accepted theory of memory retrieval. How can we remember better? Um, some things we don't want to remember.

SPEAKER_01:

No, something some things are best put in the vault and left there.

SPEAKER_02:

And left there, yes. And I think it's probably worth mentioning actually at this point in the podcast that memory sometimes we don't need to remember things. Even if they are traumatic, even if they're not traumatic, we don't actually need to remember everything that we've ever lived with. That we can live on and and go about our lives without remembering such awful, maybe traumatic events as well. I think the general consensus being that yes, or they may affect you, and maybe talking about it does help. And uh therapy is a great, great kind of tool for that. You don't have to remember, you just have to learn to um accept and and move on from that. Yeah, but there's you don't need to recall the nitty-gritty to know that something awful happened.

SPEAKER_01:

You don't, but there's also your mind your mind can also store things that were traumatic or that you think were traumatic, and sometimes through therapy as well, you can actually find out actually it wasn't that bad. Yeah. You're misremembering it yourself. Yeah. So there's that side of it.

SPEAKER_02:

There's a protection side as well. I think I think your body, your mind is always working to protect itself on most occasions. It's very, it's very rare that your body's not protecting you against something, something uh protecting over protecting you about something is what I'm trying to say. So the mind is a marvellous thing. It is great, it is great. Uh can lie, but it's great. It's great at protecting the psyche and it's great at protecting you. Um so it's not anything to be um, it's not anything to be mad about. No.

SPEAKER_01:

Um didn't there was um so I did and it's kind of related to that, but it shows how how how the mind kind of works as well. So I did a psychological study years ago, and the the stud when I went into the study, we were thinking about okay, so if you see traumatic things, uh the idea was we we're flooded with a load of images, some traumatic, some horrible images, and we then played a word association game. And then we did the opposite, and in that you were shown lots of lovely things.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And then did a word association game. And uh went into that study thinking, okay, so if you're gonna see a lot of a lot of nasty things, when you do the word association game, you're going to say nasty things because you're in that mindset, and vice versa. That after seeing the nice things, when you do the word association game, you're gonna see you're gonna say things that are nice and happy and upbeat. It's actually the opposite. It's completely the opposite. It's like your mind is trying to keep that balance constantly of going on. So when you saw when I watched the traumatic stuff, I was then saying nice things.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

But when I was saying seeing nice things, I was then going down a darker path with the word association game. It's it's that's how your mind is so clever.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And that it yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I think I think the way in which people deal with traumatic events as well. Some people may use humour, for example, to get through a traumatic event. And I I think I do as well. And another person might think that's insensitive, but actually sometimes when you deal with a lot of bad things, uh, maybe because of your job or uh mostly jobs. I'm gonna I'm gonna be a bad idea. You could be a doctor seeing some pretty pretty horrific things in the field. You could be um you could be in the police force and see, again, some pretty horrific things in the field. And maybe having a laugh and joke about it seems insensitive, but actually sometimes it's the coping and coping mechanism to to yeah to to to cope with those things.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I mean I'm I'm quite it's it's quite funny. There's the little things that wind me up, but big traumatic events don't I go very I go very numb and they don't really affect me.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, let's take that I mean I know it's one example of uh you remember this of when we when you fainted that time and you kind of collapsed in the shop and the you know when the doctor came running over it was like I kind of went kind of started reeling off what had happened to you and he thought I was just a passer by and when I said no I'm her dad, he's like, Well, you're very calm about it all.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, you're like well, yeah. Same shit, different day, really. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly. You you I remember this this isn't oversharing. There's the buttons. I hope not. The story's about me. No, no, no, it's not it's not about you. Well, you you're involved in this story, but uh there was I won't go into too much detail, but there was a very traumatic uh incident, let's say, that happened, and I was on the phone to you. Um I'm being very careful what I say.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

And I was I think I know what you mean. Yeah, I was on the phone to you, and I was in dealing with something at the time, and I remember you saying to your mum, he's gone into work mode. You know what I'm talking about?

SPEAKER_02:

I think I think so.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I think so.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, involving a-was I called you. You called me, yeah, yeah. And I kind of but I went into that the person didn't die. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, we're thinking of different things then.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

I was with him at the time. Remember? Can you can you not remember that?

SPEAKER_02:

No, I I I don't remember this conversation at all.

SPEAKER_01:

You don't remember this conversation. Really? And I was there and I'd phoned up and up the the paramedics and everything was there, and I phoned your mum, and you I got on the phone to you.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And you said to me, or you said to your mum, I heard you say it on the phone, saying he's gone into work mode.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Because I just completely disassociated and just there was no emotion, just went.

SPEAKER_02:

I think I do remember that actually.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Maybe.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Or yeah, or are you now remembering it? Or am I not remembering it? Are you now remembering it because I put that memory into your head?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, now I'm like, did that happen?

SPEAKER_01:

Now I'm questioning my own memory of that.

SPEAKER_02:

Do you know what? I'm gonna go ahead and say that I don't remember that.

SPEAKER_01:

Really? Yeah. See, I do.

SPEAKER_02:

There's a part of me that's I remember when he died.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I don't remember the convers I don't remember I don't remember being part of that conversation.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. You definitely were. I remember when I definitely remember you were because I remember that phrase because you because that was it was so out of the blue, you saying that.

SPEAKER_02:

I I think it was scarier when he was walking along the A11.

SPEAKER_01:

Jesus Christ, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I think that's scarier to me.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I remember that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Because I remember that was the same day that the incident happened in Wyndham.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And I was like, okay, I think we need to separate ourselves. You deal with that, and I'm gonna deal with this.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and we we went our separate ways that day. I was like, I I cannot, I don't have the brain space to deal with two of these things at once. I'm just gonna stick with this one. You were like, fair enough, alias. Don't worry, we got this. And I was like, sweet. Um that I remember, yeah, but I don't I remember him dying.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, I remember I remember his death. I should say, I don't remember him dying. Um I'm not sure I remember that conversation.

SPEAKER_01:

Do you remember that conversation? No, I just I remember you saying that, and that that kind of struck a chord with me because it was a natural reaction for me to do what I do in those situations.

SPEAKER_02:

There's there's been another time that you've gone into what I would class as work mode. It was at Fairy Fest when that guy punched me in the face.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

He didn't mean to. I know he didn't mean to. He didn't mean to, but he did clock me. Yeah. Um, and I remember you being so drunk and silly, and then suddenly it was like, it just carried this guy out and uh out of the tent. Like it was like a split second, like you went from one mode to another. It was the craziest thing. I can't even remember what he did, why he was kicked out. Uh It wasn't because he punched me, that was in the hub up.

SPEAKER_01:

That was in the hubbub. No, there was there was a fight about to break out on the dance floor.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Literally, it was and it was going to get it.

SPEAKER_02:

It was to do with him, wasn't it? He was like the instigator with him.

SPEAKER_01:

He was the instigator and I had to get him out of the out of the place before it really got very ugly very, very quickly, and I managed to get him out.

SPEAKER_02:

It was just I've never seen anything happen so quickly before my eyes, but also get punched in the face.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

It was a bit of a shock all round, and I was like, ugh. I remember the ambulance car looking over me and I was like, look, I feel fine, but I was also very drunk myself.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I was like, I feel fine. I remember saying that, I was like, feel fine, but it was just like a bit of a shock just being hit. I guess I just wasn't expecting being hit, but yeah, very strange.

SPEAKER_01:

No, I had I just had to remove him from the situation. Yeah, you were you were in drunk mode.

SPEAKER_02:

You were not in drunk mode. You went into work mode from drunk mode very quickly. Yeah. Like a split second had passed, and it's like boom, boom, boom. I was like, oh.

SPEAKER_01:

But then I went straight back to drunk mode again.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, you did. Yeah, I'm pretty certain you did, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

It's like all sorted. Let's party!

SPEAKER_02:

So anyway, I was gonna talk about tips for remembering information. Sorry. Um which is fine, and then we'll wrap up. So um there are there are a few ways that you can uh try and remember things easier. You actually touched on this one, so I'm gonna go to the bottom one first, which is tell a story. Our brains make up a narrative. I've seen people uh do memory tests uh and they have basically seemingly random amount of objects that they have to remember, and he'll make a story, or or someone will make a story like um the book went on holiday to the Caribbean, and then the Caribbean will be the next thing that they have to remember, and then in the Caribbean, we played uh, you know, we had rum and coke, and rum and coke is the next thing you have to remember, and so and so and so and so. Um so that's called tell a story. Um, storytelling is uh is a great way of remembering chunking, which is grouping information into patterns. Um, this is something that I tend to do myself, I think, um, because I see patterns in a lot of things, I find that very comforting, and therefore I I buff things together. In my head, numbers have certain patterns when I'm trying to remember and recall pin numbers, telephone numbers, anything, anything numerical I I chunk into groups um mathematically. I don't know why I do that, I just do. Um, spaced uh repetition. So um repetitions are great for memory. Um it's what we do as musicians when we're learning an instrument, it's all about repetition.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, muscle memory is a thing.

SPEAKER_02:

Muscle memory is absolutely a thing, but just general repetition of words, sounds, anything like that is really good for memory recall. Elaborative rehearsal, which has to be my my favourite, is connecting information to what you already know. So if you're trying to uh study for a test and you already know that um the hippocampus is part of the brain, but you don't know what what part the hippocampus does. Which is to do with memory, by the way. I just thought I'd just put that in there. Yeah, you can you can kind of combine it with information that you already know. And I think uh the way I like to think of elaborative uh elaborate elaborative rehearsal is that you're rehearsing for a play but you don't know all the parts. So you know that one bit of the play and then you like then you just slowly and uh build your foundation. So you got your foundation and you build up to it, and that is how modern schools work. They they start you with a foundation and they build on what you already know. That's how kind of academic academia works, and then mnemonics, which are silly little things. Mnemonics are very fun. I always use to remember the order of the planets. I have a mnemonic that I go, my very eager memory jerks and shows us nature's plan. Although we've dropped the P because Pluto's no longer a planet when I learned, just don't plan it. Poor Pluto, poor Pluto. I'm a dwarf human, so I kind of understand. No, I mnemonics are a really fun uh way of remembering and recalling information as well. So um so yeah, I think a lot of people use mnemonics for spelling because uh big elephants can't always understand small elephants. To remember the word because I remember using that one quite a lot. I can spell because now.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh to spell the word necessary, I think of one c uh one collar, two sleeves.

SPEAKER_01:

I I one C, two S's. Necessary and decision. They're the two words I can never spell. Decision.

SPEAKER_02:

I can't spell definitely without having to really think about Definitely. Def definitively. Yeah. I if I think of diff in it, and then I think ah, because deaf because we pronounce it definite, definitely. Definitely definitely. It's definitely blood. See, now you're gonna remember that because you've you know that phrase in it.

SPEAKER_00:

Fram.

SPEAKER_02:

See, this is what I like about elaborative rehearsals, because you already in it is already a thing, and you're like, oh, definitely. Like it's just yeah, it's adding from voice. I think it's one of my favourite things. Um, but that pretty much sums up what what we've talked about today. I just thought I'd I'd leave us on a on a how you can improve your memory. Uh but memory is thank you. Did you enjoy this episode?

SPEAKER_01:

I did actually, I did really enjoy this episode.

SPEAKER_02:

Did you enjoy not having to do anything for this episode in terms of writing it?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Cool. Yeah, should we this is the next one? Should we do other episode? I'm quite liking this.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, really? Yeah, let's do let's do the other one I wrote. Okay and then I won't write another 15. We'll crack both of mine out in the same session. I like it, I like it. Well, if you enjoyed this episode, we have plenty of other episodes in the bank. Uh we do quite a few psychology kind of led ones. We do our joint interests, so we we tend to touch on it. We touch on it most episodes, actually.

SPEAKER_01:

We do, actually, we do, because it's what we both studied creature of habits. Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

It's what we can recall.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, I bent myself the other day as well.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, that's a really bad one, actually. Yeah. I thought that was you like just being you and being like hypochondriac, but that genuinely does look like quite bad.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I just noticed it. I yeah. No, that's touching the element in the oven.

SPEAKER_02:

Fun.

SPEAKER_01:

When I was getting out a pizza.

SPEAKER_02:

Lovely.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

What what flavour was the pizza?

SPEAKER_01:

It was um oh it was from Liddles. It was one of those salami ones with the peppers on it.

SPEAKER_02:

No, I don't like it.

SPEAKER_01:

It was it was purely salami. I don't like those little bits of beef that you get in a meat feast pizza. I'm not 100% sure. Oh what like the mints? Yeah, I'm not 100% sure what that is. So beef, presumably. Is it though?

SPEAKER_02:

Horse?

SPEAKER_01:

Is it though? Is it beef?

SPEAKER_02:

Well from Lidl it's probably like antelope. Sorry. Antelope.

SPEAKER_01:

No, but the I like the salami, and I had that on the top, and your mum had one of those little mini um because she eats the vegetarian. A quiche. A quitche. No, she had the uh Buffalo mozzarella one.

SPEAKER_02:

So she had a cheese pizza.

SPEAKER_01:

She had a cheese pizza, yeah. Understood. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Boring. Um if you enjoyed this episode, we have plenty in the bank. And um have a lovely day. Cutie outro. Thanks for joining us on bonus dad, bonus daughter. Don't forget to follow us on all our socials and share the podcast with someone who'd love it. We are available on all streaming platforms. See you next time. Bye bye.