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Inside The Psychology And Power Of Cults: From Waco To NXIVM

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What if belonging became the lever that someone else used to move your life? We dive into the unsettling mechanics of cults with a clear lens: how they recruit, why bright and capable people get swept up, and the tactics that turn belief into control and harm. From the first warm welcome to the last closed door, we unpack the playbook of love-bombing, isolation, identity erasure, and fear.

We walk through notorious cases to ground the psychology in reality. Rajneeshpuram’s utopian promise ended with bioterror in Oregon. Aum Shinrikyo blended apocalyptic mysticism with science to unleash sarin in Tokyo. Waco reveals how prophecy, weapons, and a heavy-handed state response can converge with tragic results. The Order of the Solar Temple and Heaven’s Gate reframed suicide as ascension. Jonestown began as inclusive idealism but became a machine for coercion, culminating in the largest intentional loss of US civilian life before 9/11. We also examine the “self-help” veneer of NXIVM, the exploitation inside Children of God, and the mind-bending charisma of Charles Manson.

Beyond headlines, we focus on the human terrain: the BITE model of control, the slow steps that normalise the extreme, and the reasons people can’t “just leave.” We share practical ways to spot red flags early—secrecy, special rules for leaders, endless courses, pressure to cut off family—and how to respond if someone you love is entangled. Healthy communities welcome questions and let you walk away without punishment; harmful groups do the opposite.

If this episode resonates, help us reach more listeners: follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a quick review with your biggest takeaway. Your support helps thoughtful conversations thrive and might be the sign someone needs to hear today.

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SPEAKER_00:

Hello and welcome to Bonus Dad. Bonus Daughter, a special father-daughter podcast with me, Hannah. And me, Davy, where we discuss our differences, similarities, share a few laughs and stories. Within our ever-changing and complex world.

SPEAKER_02:

Each week we will discuss a topic from our own point of view and influences throughout the decades. Or you could choose one by contacting us via email, Instagram, Facebook, or TikTok. Links in bio. Hi everyone, Hannah here. Some discussions in this episode might be upsetting for some listeners. Feel free to skip this one and don't worry, we won't mind. Hello, and welcome to a very special.

SPEAKER_00:

You were watching, you were watching my finger on that record by the lady watching the five.

SPEAKER_02:

I was. Um hi. Um this is another very special episode of Bonus Dad, Bonus Todd Podcast, uh, as directed by my hands here, unless you're an audio listener by my voice here. And um, we are going to do an episode on cults today.

SPEAKER_00:

Have you read this script? No, no.

SPEAKER_02:

I did just peer at the first line. Um and I I understand that you're going to describe what a cult is. Yes, exactly. And that's as much as I know. Very busy and very ill.

SPEAKER_00:

You have been very busy. So I got the idea for this particular episode actually on a training course at work.

SPEAKER_01:

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh no. I was I was in a I was in a course of uh an incredibly serious subject, and some and I won't say what the subject was, but it's fine. Yeah, and during that they said this this type of scenario could also happen within cults as well. Oh. And and then it was just like, oh, we haven't done a podcast episode on cults. Let's let's do a podcast on cults. That's where I got the idea from. Lovely. So yeah, so we're going to talk a little bit about what a cult is, a little bit um psychology of cults, and then I've got 10 cults, and I want to see if you've see, this is the beauty of me writing these like this, because I know you're not you never read them, so I just let's leave them in our shared drive, saying with me then going seeing if you've heard of them or reacting to them, knowing full well that it's there for you to see, but you never do.

SPEAKER_02:

So it's it is a genuine blind react. Yeah. I do not prepare for these episodes, but I feel like that makes the episode.

SPEAKER_00:

It does.

SPEAKER_02:

I feel like it does.

SPEAKER_00:

So, Hannah, what is a cult?

SPEAKER_02:

I would say that just by the script alone, that the cult I think a cult for me is is it seems like a negative word.

SPEAKER_00:

100%.

SPEAKER_02:

I feel like a cult is seen as a negative thing because often it it's kind of like a forced or coerced life on someone, and I I don't really like that. I think people should know how they want to live, but I guess if that's all they know, they don't know any better.

SPEAKER_00:

It's psychological control.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Which I'm not a fan of. It's psychological control.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I'm sure there's good cults, I'm sure there's cults that aren't that bad. I'm sure the concept of a cult.

SPEAKER_00:

Any form of psychological control on anybody, I'm very anti control.

SPEAKER_02:

It feels poor. Yeah, I'm very unpoor.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, a cult is generally you you within a cult, you've got some kind of charismatic authoritarian leader seen as bizarrely enough. Do you know what? I was just then thinking because I've just started playing Far Cry Five again, and Far Cry Five is a is is about cult. I mean, in Far Cry Five, I can't believe I'm using a game reference, they call the the authoritarian figure is called the father.

SPEAKER_02:

The father.

SPEAKER_00:

There's generally kind of like some religious. Some some father figure.

SPEAKER_02:

Grandfather or headmaster or like you know, some sort of head of, isn't there?

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. So and he's he's generally he I say he could be a female as well. I mean, it generally is very charismatic as well, gets people to buy into things.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, I mean the gift of the gap.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't want to say some names now because I know that I've written them in some of the cults down below. They want this extreme devotion to their belief system, yeah. And whether that belief system is based around religion or their own belief, sometimes the main religion is there and they just kind of do a little bit of an offshoot of it.

SPEAKER_02:

Like, you know, the I I also think there are cults that you don't know are cults. For example, anyone that buys into HelloFresh.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, there are cults in this country now.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. The Hello Fresh ones. Because I don't know about you, but I receive like this is paper mail, snail mail through the door. And it's always HelloFresh vouchers, and it's this and that. And it's like join, join, join our cult of people that are cooking fresh. And I'm just I it is a cult, I'm sure of it. Hello Fresh is a cult. Any of those, gusto, the the Pampachef is it Pampachef?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, Pampa Chef, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Cult.

SPEAKER_00:

We've got to be very careful saying the word cult. Cult. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I also think Avon might be a cult.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Clean easy.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, that's that that's that the pyramid scheme. They're cults. They're cults. They're cults. They're cults. Um and they also the the other thing, the other characteristic of them is the isolation from outsiders. It's like we're right, the rest of the world is wrong. Stay with us, stay stay within the family, all of that. The rest of the world and then you've got the there's a lot of exploitation within their financial, emotionally, and even sexual as well.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I I I think you've got religious cults as well, they're slightly different. Maybe um would you call us Amish as a cult? Their own or is that a culture way of life? Where does that sort of culture? A culture.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So we've got to be, but where does the word cult come from if it's not culture?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, exactly. See, not every fringe religion or group is a cult. The difference is the way you look at it is that cults will harm their members. Right. And the Amish aren't being harmed. No, they're not being harmed. I mean, if you if that that's that's the real difference, is that the the cult will harm their members for generally it's for control. For control for that pyramid scheme, essentially. Yeah. For the authoritarian leader to reap the benefits of it. Hello. There are some cults where they'll you know the the the the father figure or or will be, you know, he will be able to have his pick of any of the women at any point. And it's you know, that's where the sexual abuse comes in. And it's you know, you you give all your money to us and get rid of all your worldly possessions, you don't need them anymore. That sort of malarkey. But it is it's it's psychological control, and uh you it's you've got the the bite model, which is behaviour, information, thought, emotional control. The psychological model around manipulation and cults. That's that's not what it is. So why do why do people actually join these things?

SPEAKER_02:

Sense of belonging would be my assumption.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly, that is exactly it. You know, you've got you know that you've the leader loneliness, yeah. The leader will present themselves as as saviours or visionaries, you know.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, could we say that? Yeah, potentially vulnerable people as well tend to maybe be more susceptible to cult antics.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

I don't know if I'm using the correct terms here, but I'm I'm yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But no, but it's it it's it's true because you you know why why do people join? Because the leaders present themselves as that saviour and say, you know, join me, I will save you, I will save your soul, I will save your life. Um and then what happens, you get the love bombing.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

So they're shown affection and that sense of belonging to that kind of things. And but the thing is, people people never go into these things, I don't think like full on by it's the gradual until you get past the point of no return.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, like HelloFresh, you just cannot cancel HelloFresh frickin' subscription and because oh, I'll give you I'll give you another month off, uh 50% off. They're a cult, I'm sure of it. It's psychological manipulation because it's like, oh, we're gonna make you eat healthy, you know, this is really good for your body.

SPEAKER_00:

Cult. Cult. Yeah, there you go. Um, so you get that small steps to bigger commitments, and then you get the sponsor by HelloFresh. Yeah, then you get the fear and isolation where members are essentially they are cutting off the other people from the family and cutting off limbs, cutting off. Sorry, I had another message come through there. Um, cutting off the you know, the emotional from from the family and also make them scared of the outside world. It's like everything out there is bad, stay here with us. Yeah, we will make your life better. And then once they're invested, the members themselves will rationalise harmful actions to avoid the pain of admitting they were wrong.

SPEAKER_02:

I see.

SPEAKER_00:

That that happens as well because no one ever joins a cult. Well, I know what you're thinking, how funny. What do you mean by that? No one will ever knowingly join a cult. What they will do is they will join a group of people who they believe will make their lives better. And only when they're so far in do they realise they are in a cult.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And then they can't get out of their HelloFresh subscription to the cult. Are you okay?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, no, no. Sorry, Annie just messaged about and saw Archie come up and said she's just doing it, she's just let Archie out. So that is yeah, that is exactly what that so they don't actually join a cult, they join a group of people that will make their lives better.

SPEAKER_02:

I see.

SPEAKER_00:

And then before you know it, bam! You're in a cult.

SPEAKER_02:

You're in a cult.

SPEAKER_00:

You're in a cult. And there are loads of different cults, loads of different ones. I mean, I've I've got ten here. Uh that I've kind of I'm ready. And some some of these couple of these you would you would have heard of, I'm sure you would have heard of. But yeah, do you wanna shall we go through them?

SPEAKER_02:

Let's go.

SPEAKER_00:

Let's go through them.

SPEAKER_02:

So I'm waiting for this pronunciation.

SPEAKER_00:

I knew you were gonna say that. So I genuinely don't know how to pronounce this Rajnishapuram. Rajnishapuram. Baguan Shri Rajanish Osho.

SPEAKER_02:

I reckon the j is silent. Ranish.

SPEAKER_00:

Ranish? Ranish Param. Yeah. Ranish Param. Yeah. Okay. So this guy, this is this is an Indian cult.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Now, the charismatic Indian guru by the name of Osho, he led thousands of Western followers to Oregon in the early 1980s. He established Oregon US. Oh, yeah. He established a utopian commune within Oregon. Right. So he was very much a almost a presented himself as a bit of a deity.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00:

And what they did, they, the group, carried out the largest bioterror attack in US history.

SPEAKER_01:

Shit.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Really?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. They poisoned salad bars in Oregon with Salmonella sickening over 750 people, and it was part of a failed plan to influence local elections. Now you've probably never heard of them, have you?

SPEAKER_02:

Sorry.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm trying not to laugh. Salad bars.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I know. I know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Are these are they that popular? Like, where are these salad bars in restaurants? It's HelloFresh, isn't it? It's HelloFresh. Oh my gosh. This is where HelloFresh got their idea from. Yeah. Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So Netflix uh did a did a um programme called Wild Wild Country, and that that actually brought the public awareness of the movement showing the rise, fall, and inner conflicts of the commune.

SPEAKER_02:

My yeah. How many people died of that? Sickening over 750.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I don't know how many people died.

SPEAKER_02:

Some people could have died from that. Oh yeah. So a failed plan to influence local elections.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Mm-hmm. So I have you know, I I didn't know about that one, but I didn't know how to pronounce the actual actual call itself. So what tactics they used, he used the love bombing, the isolation from outsiders, and the devotion to him as the guru. And but but he traveled he he had a Rolled Royce. So because everyone gave him the money. He was travelling around in a rolled royce while he preached to everybody else about detachment.

SPEAKER_02:

See, this is how can you do that to people?

SPEAKER_00:

See, this is what's narcissism, isn't it? Yeah, it's pure narcissism.

SPEAKER_02:

It's like narcissist narcissist in the flesh.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's the epitome of narcissism. It's yeah. So you ever heard that TV show's on Netflix? Might want to watch that actually. Give it a goo. Give it a goo. Give it a goo. Next one. Now it's Japanese cult.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm looking forward to the pronunciation of this one.

SPEAKER_00:

Ayum Shinrikyo.

SPEAKER_02:

I yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I agree.

SPEAKER_00:

Ayum Shinrikyo.

SPEAKER_02:

If you're Japanese, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00:

Sorry. Yes, I do apologize. Uh so these this group was founded in 1984 by Shoko Ashara. And they mixed apocalyptic Buddhism, yoga, and conspiracy theories.

SPEAKER_01:

Damn.

SPEAKER_00:

To get what they want. And followers believe that they were chosen to survive and rebuild the world after an inevitable global catastrophe.

SPEAKER_02:

Ah, so they predicted an apocalypse.

SPEAKER_00:

But they went one step further.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

They actually tried to bring it on. So I remember this. So they actually did a terrorist attack.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00:

In 1995, they released Sarangas.

SPEAKER_02:

Pre-Hana.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and in the Tokyo subway system, killing 13 and injuring thousands. An unprecedented act of domestic terrorism in Japan. So they actually tried to bring on the apocalypse. That was part of what I do.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, you you can't predict something and then actually trying to enact to bring it on to just prove your point.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_02:

That's just a that's just absurd. That's just manipulation, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. So after after this happened, the leader and a few others were actually executed by the Japanese government.

SPEAKER_02:

Dude.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

To be fair.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, the group can't understand why. The group then splintered but rebranded under something else, and they still are under government surveillance. So they still don't trust them.

SPEAKER_02:

Would you? No.

SPEAKER_00:

No.

SPEAKER_02:

Not after that. No.

SPEAKER_00:

So the tactics that he used again, he's a very charismatic leader. Uh he controlled members through fear and damnation because of his divine status that he claimed.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And he actually used violence as well to suppress dissent within the within the group. So he was a nasty bastard.

SPEAKER_02:

Nasty, yeah. If you're gonna join any cult, that is not the one.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that is the one.

SPEAKER_02:

Sarah Fresh is looking mighty fine right now.

SPEAKER_00:

But the but yeah, I I remember that being in the news in 1995, that the Tokyo subway attack when they released Arengas. Crazy. Now this guy, that was this this was the when when I think of cults, I think of this. There's two guys I think of. This next one is one of them, David Koresh. The other one is Charlie Manson, and I think I've actually got Charlie Manson. Yeah, I've got Charlie Manson later on. So David Koresh, uh, he this this again before you were born, it was in Waco in Texas, and it was uh the Waco siege. Have you ever heard of that? I remember watching it on telly, it was insane, it was absolutely insane. So you know Kevin Smith, uh the dogma morals.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

He cre he wrote a film, he did a film called Red State. Brilliant film that was very big that was based on Waco as well. You know, the the cult in in that as well. So the they were the branch Davidens, so David Koresh was the was the leader. They were an offshoot of the Seventh-day Athens Church, and it was a Texas-based group led by David Koresh, and he believed that the end times were imminent. Koresh claimed to be the final prophet, again, this kind of divine I'm you know he was very charismatic. He he actually there was a 51-day standoff at the Waco Siege in 1993. Yeah, and it ended up with uh federal agents in a fiery inferno after tear gas was deployed. 76 people, including women and children, died. It was horrendous. It was absolutely horrendous.

SPEAKER_02:

Now How are they getting how are they how are they getting hold of this stuff?

SPEAKER_00:

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_02:

Is it really that easy to get tear gas?

SPEAKER_00:

Like like No, the federal agents use tear gas.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, but they set it up.

SPEAKER_00:

They they they sent tear gas in to go into train the siege and they stormed it.

SPEAKER_02:

I thought it was the tear gas that killed the people.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, no, they they store they stormed it. You know, after 51 days, federal agents just went in. In and okay. Loads of people died.

SPEAKER_02:

After tear gas was employed, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Loads and loads of teaser.

SPEAKER_02:

Did they just literally open fire on everyone then?

SPEAKER_00:

Pretty much. It just ended the massive gun battle.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00:

Which is what in when you watch Red State, the same thing happens at the end of Red State.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, you'd think maybe can you revive some people from a cult though? Like, was that necessary?

SPEAKER_00:

Some people have got out of cults.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I just you have to be deprogrammed.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, I think the psychology behind it.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, yeah, because you'd have to be re reconnected with like society and how it is today as well. Oh, that's crazy. You have to so crazy.

SPEAKER_00:

You have to be deprogrammed outside outside of cult because you believe it with every fibre of your being.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So what he did, he enforced strict control, old David Koresh, including polyogamy and sexual access to female followers, even minors. This guy was wrong on so many levels.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Bye.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's uh horrible, horrible person.

SPEAKER_02:

But the government's role remains controversial.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, of how sick this guy seems.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Not saying it was justified, but I'm not unhappy with the result, I guess, but not I'm not very happy that women and children died, obviously.

SPEAKER_00:

But I've not heard of this next group.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, I feel like I have.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, the Order of the Solar Temple, founded in 1984. A secretive sect sect claimed to carry on the traditions of the Night Templar.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh members believe that they were destined to ascend to a higher spiritual plane. Again, it's you know, this ascension.

SPEAKER_02:

I know I've heard of this.

SPEAKER_00:

I've never I don't know. It's it sounds like the Order of the Solar Temple almost sounds like it's in a book or yeah, it sounds like one of the like the mummy films.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it does, doesn't it? It's it does the mummy, yeah. The order of the solar temple. Yeah. Or an Indiana Jones.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. The Order of the Solar Temple. Yeah. I don't know. Or is it like in a game or something like that?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it just sounds like familiar to me.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh so they had um found in 1984, and between 1994 and 1997, over 70 members died in coordinated murder suicides across Switzerland, Canada, and France. Many were dressed in ceremonial robes.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, okay. So they all kind of topped themselves off. So it would be like a chain Yeah. Pew Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

That that sort of melaca.

SPEAKER_02:

Members believe Death would reunite them on a planet orbiting Sirius.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I mean, that could be true. We just don't know.

SPEAKER_00:

We we Yeah. This is do you know what?

SPEAKER_02:

Devil's advocate, but we don't know, do we?

SPEAKER_00:

There's a there's a sci-fi story here.

SPEAKER_02:

There is, there is another mammonot fish frequency.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Uh so the tactics that he used or they used was creating this aura of mysticism, secrecy, and elitism to isolate and manipulate farmers.

SPEAKER_02:

You will go to this other cool place with only us if you kill yourself now.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. There's only so many spaces.

SPEAKER_02:

They could be there though, that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00:

What gets me though is what is I mean, the guy who create the the person who created this cult and the the ones who do these murder suicides in these cults, what they them they're not right in the home.

SPEAKER_02:

This is what gets me. Like, like, like the last one we just did with that uh that really sick guy was David Koresh, like David Koresh. Like, what what is going through his mind? Like, I know narcissism this feels like another level of narcissism.

SPEAKER_00:

It's insanity.

SPEAKER_02:

It's got to be right.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

That's a that's a mental illness, surely.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

At this point. Yeah. I I yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, when we come on when we come on to Charlie Manson, I mean that that is the you know, that's he he's messed in the head. So there's no other way to put it, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02:

It's so difficult, isn't it? Because it's it's so difficult to re use the right language because you don't really want to be disrespectful, but at the same time, it's like it's there's there's there's a line, isn't there?

SPEAKER_00:

You know, uh yeah. Um the next one, Heaven's Gate, I've heard of these.

SPEAKER_02:

That is a um uh Fallout Boy song, is it not?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, this is uh this this is very similar to the Order of the Solar Temple because when I actually read that I was saying about them orbiting this planet around Syria. So I was like, I'm sure that's like Heaven's Gates MO. And it was. Um so very, very similar type of um outcome as what Mass Suicide Jobby as Order of Solar Temple. So founded by a guy called Marshall Applewhite and Bonnie Nettles.

SPEAKER_02:

What a name. Yeah, that sounds like an artist name. Yeah. Who am I? Bonnie Nettles.

SPEAKER_00:

So the group taught that humans could exit their vehicles, which was their bodies. Okay, so their soul could leave their vehicle saying as their seeing as their bodies were just like bags of meat holding your soul and everything inside, and join extraterrestrials in a higher realm. In 1997, and I remember this, they um when this got reported, 39 mem 39 members died in a coordinated suicide, believing that their souls would board a spaceship trailing the Hellbop comet.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh they wore identical clothing and Nike decade seekers.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Or trainers, sorry, since Nike got some few sales out of that one, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Or 39 extra pairs.

SPEAKER_02:

39 extra pairs of sales.

SPEAKER_00:

So yeah, it I mean Heaven's Gate is a that that's a that's quite a famous cult because of what happened. So yeah, so um kill yourself and you'll uh you'll end up on this planet. In fact, do you know what? Oh, so three eye atlas, the comet that is currently speeding towards us. So remember I told you about that?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah, we're all gonna die.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, well, some people think it's a spaceship.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

That that's got Heaven's Gate written all over it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that's what they would use as evidence to support a theory.

SPEAKER_00:

That's got Heaven's Gate written all over it. But the website, you can still the website's still up for Heaven's Gate. It's still there, you can look at it. Now I haven't, I must admit, I never have. It's one of those things where I don't that could be put on a list if you Yeah, there are certain websites you do end up on lists uh if you do you do look at them. But it is maintained today as both a relic and a warning.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

That's why they've they're still up there. It's I mean the thing I couldn't imagine going on there because it would be so eerie to go onto that website. Like there's certain yeah, no.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I get what you mean.

SPEAKER_00:

But they their tactics that they used was a blend of sci-fi spirituality, strict celibacy, communal living to dissolve ident individual identity. So that's another cult's tactic is removing you remove the individual's identity.

SPEAKER_02:

And pleasure?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Can we go as far as to say that?

SPEAKER_00:

Like But that's what I mean, that's what some cults do as well. They, you know, you are no longer say, for instance, like Hannah, if you joined a cult, your name Hannah would be no more. It would be something like 213. Or no, it would be like Sister Ophelia.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, removing your identity to be become part of that identity.

SPEAKER_02:

Not a huge fan of that.

SPEAKER_00:

No. You don't like the idea of being called Sister Ophelia?

SPEAKER_02:

No.

SPEAKER_00:

No.

SPEAKER_02:

Why Ophelia?

SPEAKER_00:

I don't have a sound part. Well, Sister Chlamydia. How's that?

SPEAKER_02:

Why? Why would you pick? That's a flower, isn't it? No. Why would you pick a trans sexually transmitted? Sorry, I thought I've talked about that or just went then.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Um, so yeah, the Heaven's Gate, that was I definitely heard of them. You've never heard of them.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh I mean I've heard of the Fallout Boy song.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Can't remember how it goes, but Ooh, I've heard of Jim's Jim Jones. Jim Jones. But I don't know much about Jim. So this was the People's Temple.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, here we go.

SPEAKER_00:

So Jim Jones uh began in Indiana in uh as a racially inclusive socialist Christian movement, and then gradually evolved.

SPEAKER_02:

Hang on, what? So a racially inclusive, as in so it was a good thing to start with. Right, okay.

SPEAKER_00:

But as it moved and m gradually moved on, it evolved into an authoritarian cult under leader Jim Jones. Now I've heard of the name Jim Jones.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, Jonestown Massacre.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, the Jonestown massacre, 1978.

SPEAKER_02:

You've heard of that? Yes, I have, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So over 900 followers died in a mass murder suicide, many by forced Sinai's laced punch. It remains the largest intentional loss of American civilian life before 9-11. Shh. Jesus. So he used fake healings, sleep deprivation, and recordings of crying babies to control members.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, I can understand why that would control me.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Tactics again, total isolation.

SPEAKER_02:

He's basically using the newborn principle to sleep deprivation and babies crying.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Armed guards rehearsed white knights, which were suicide drills to keep car kept floor followers compliant. Jesus. Yeah. So it started off.

SPEAKER_02:

It started off, oh yeah, we're gonna be really ch like Christian church.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And then just went down. Weird outcome. Yeah. Oh. Oh, and then we've got the uh oh the the children of God, now called the Family International. So this was founded. I've heard the name David Berg as well. Um found I've done but I've never heard of children of God, but I know the name David Berg. Um founded in 1968 uh by by David Berg, the cult spread through hippie counterculture, encouraging flirty fishing, using sex to recruit members.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh no.

SPEAKER_00:

So consensual sex to oh that's why I've heard of this group. Go on. Course. So there were Waqueen Phoenix and Rose McGowan were born into the group and they they got out. Good for them. They got out. That's how I that's I think I've heard like um interviews with Waqueen Phoenix, maybe Rose McGowan, mentioning David Berg.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

So that's yeah. Um, but what they there was rampant sexual abuse of women and children.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh huh.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, survivors report trauma, exploitation, and lack of education. I think we might need to put a warning on this episode.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I think yeah, we've got that, haven't we?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, we've got that, yeah. Um, I think we need to put a warning on this episode. So tactics that they used, religious justifications for abuse, scripture twisting, and breaking family bonds were common. So again, isolating people, using sexual abuse, and yeah. But yeah, Wacqueen Phoenix and Rose McGowan, they um they escaped.

SPEAKER_02:

Eek.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Uh the next one. Do we pronounce that one? We've got three, we've got three left. Three.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, there is a no ask pronunciation guide for this one.

SPEAKER_00:

Do you know what? I like that. I then saw that as I was like, how am I gonna say this? But then Nexium.

SPEAKER_02:

Nexium, so NXIVM.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So marketed as a self-help and personal growth company. Oh my goodness. HelloFresh.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh, they attracted professionals, celebrities, and the heiresses. And then featured.

SPEAKER_02:

Very oddly specific back here.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Inside you had a secret inner group called DOS branded women.

unknown:

What?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Enforced starvation and use blackmail to ensure silence.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00:

So this big this is creepy.

SPEAKER_02:

This is weird.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Why?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, I'm not surprised. Keith Rainier was convicted on multiple charges, including sex trafficking, raffle, and forced labour. He was sentenced to 120 years in prison in 2020.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, he's definitely not coming out anytime soon, then is he?

SPEAKER_00:

No. And what tactics do they use? Pseudoscience, hierarchical rewards, and manipulation disguised as empowerment. Yeah. Pseudoscience. HelloFresh.

SPEAKER_02:

Pseudoscience.

SPEAKER_00:

Pseudoscience. Pseudoscience. Yeah. Never heard of that one.

SPEAKER_02:

You heard of that one? No. No. I feel like we don't we don't fit their MO because it's attracted professional celebrities and heirs.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

None of which we are.

SPEAKER_00:

The the next two you must have heard of.

SPEAKER_02:

I feel like I have heard of this one.

SPEAKER_00:

You've heard of Charlie Manson.

SPEAKER_02:

I think I have, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So the he's he's one of the most famous cults there was. So you've heard Sharon Tate who they killed, the actress they killed?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Um the film Once Upon a Time in Hollywood is based is Sharon Tate Margot Robbie play Sharon Tate.

SPEAKER_02:

Right, I see, I see.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. Um basically Charlie Manson was a failed musician. Uh and the family that he had, he created this family. Um is he in relation to Marilyn Manson? No.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

No. They w they had a commune in California. It's in the 60s. LSD was rife, drugs were rife, there was lots of drug taking going on. And he he used LSD and he predicted this apocalypse prophecy and racial war fantasies. He was obsessed by Helter Skelter. The Hell to Skelter was a real big thing. Beatlesong.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, right.

SPEAKER_00:

He was he was convinced. He was convinced that the health hell to skelter was going to be a race war.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

And he I mean he got arrested and he ended up in prison. And the people interviewing, he is off his rocker.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

He is not right. Maybe do probably years of abuse of LSD. Yeah. Plus also he definitely has got mental health difficulties as well.

SPEAKER_02:

What race is he?

SPEAKER_00:

He's white.

SPEAKER_02:

Is Sharon Tate white?

SPEAKER_00:

White.

unknown:

Oh.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I thought it was like a racial killing. That's why I was trying to get to the point.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, in 1969, the a few members, they killed people. They went round and they killed they killed a couple of people.

SPEAKER_02:

Just a couple.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And one of them was the pregnant actress Sharon Tate.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, she was pregnant.

SPEAKER_00:

She was pregnant, which is why it was so awful. So awful. But the thing is, when you when you because the Man the Manson family, there's been a few documentaries, there's been a few films about that, which is probably why it's so prevalent. But how how they didn't because the way the murders were done, they weren't connected anywhere, they didn't have the same MO, so no one connected them.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. But they seemed random.

SPEAKER_00:

They did, but there was clues in there that they missed because they weren't looking for them.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, I see.

SPEAKER_00:

But yeah, I mean the crimes completely shattered the counterculture idealism and the hippie idealism.

SPEAKER_01:

Um yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And it spotlighted the dark side of charismatic control. He was like, but there was there was um what's the word, psychological studies done. How did this man manage to manipulate these people like this?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, damn.

SPEAKER_00:

And some of the some of the family members, I mean, when he was in when he was in court, they would scream for him and cry for him, and you know, the the the the daughters of Charlie Manson. It was just it's it's a real tough watch.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

How he managed to manipulate these people.

SPEAKER_02:

It's not something I'm gonna go out of my way to uh research into, I must admit.

SPEAKER_00:

I think there's Netflix documentaries and they do interview some of the Charlie Manson's family, and they do they talk about when they committed the murders, how they did it. It's yeah, it's but yeah, I mean the drug fuel brainwashing, isolation of society, and the erasure of personal identity.

SPEAKER_02:

It's weird when you're in the doc because I can see it come up as Hannah, and I'm like, huh? That's not me. And then I realize it's you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Oh, what in the document? Yeah, in the in the actual doc, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm like, oh, Hannah's editing this. I'm like, I'm not.

SPEAKER_00:

No, it's me. It's me. This next one is gonna be fairly controversial. No, I put this one in on purpose because I do consider this to be a cult.

SPEAKER_02:

Eek like HelloFresh.

SPEAKER_00:

Like HelloFresh. This is worse than HelloFresh. But this has actually got quite a few famous celebrities attached to this.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm aware.

SPEAKER_00:

Such as Tom Cruise. I know, such as John Travolta.

SPEAKER_02:

You are, you are on a thin line here.

SPEAKER_00:

I am, I'm going Scientology. I'm going Scientology. Sorry, they are a cult.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

There's no other way to say it, they are a cult.

SPEAKER_02:

What makes you think that they're a cult? Explain yourself.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, the exploitation.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

The the idea of the divine, you know, the the it just yeah. It's got cult vibes, it's got culty vibes, it's just culty vibes. So the guy who created it, a guy called Elvon Hubbard, 1953, and it claims to offer spiritual enlightenment through auditing and past life exploration. Now, the coercive recruitment, the harassment of other people and critics, and also the I mean, seeing the documentary with Justin Thoreau, where he's followed by these guys. Sorry, it's got cult written all over it. It really, really has. Uh they use I mean they're very secret, they watch people, they isolate people, and of course, they use pseudoscience as well. Sorry, it's a cult.

SPEAKER_02:

This is I mean, we've done a similar episode on th the groups of what's it like the stonecutters and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

It's kind of got that written over it as well. That kind of the secret society situation.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, eyes wide shut.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

That sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_02:

It's kind of like I know that's more conspiracy theory, I guess, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_00:

The stonecutter. You mean the Freemasons.

SPEAKER_02:

The Freemasons, yeah, sorry. What are they saying stonecutters for? Simpsons. Freemasons. Yeah. Yeah. I just Yeah, I just feel like there's there's similarities between religious culture, yeah. Cults and secret societies. Like they all seem to have the same MO but different they're just going different ways about it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah. So what do you think? Well we're definitely gonna have put a warning on the beginning of this episode. Yeah, we definitely first time we've ever had to do it. That's not true. We've done controversial.

SPEAKER_02:

When we done the we have done it. I can't remember which one I was gonna say the secret places one. It wasn't that one, but there was one we did put it on the on the front. I think we put it on the women's health one as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Did we? Oh yeah, I think we did actually. Yeah, I think we did. Different reason, but yeah. So, you know, when you look at a cult, so do you think all of when we go back to the beginning and what defines a cult? Okay, so you've got charismatic authoritarian leader, extreme devotion to a belief system, isolation from outsiders, and exploitation. Do all of those that I've mentioned have those characteristics?

SPEAKER_02:

I think so. And I think there's probably I think a lot of people would probably question why don't they just leave, right?

SPEAKER_00:

They can't.

SPEAKER_02:

And I know they can't. I think I I think it's like abusive relationships, it's not that easy. It is yeah, yes, that's exactly it. It's that kind of like even if you leave, you can't leave because they've got so much resource to get you back, or so much dirt. I don't know what else, however, to describe it, blackmail, if you will, or something like that. There is there is it must be so difficult to leave a place. You'd have to have some sort of higher mass of people backing you to leave and protect you. I'm not talking government, I'm just saying in general. Is are there charities out there that help people get out of cults?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh yeah, there is.

SPEAKER_02:

If I literally type in how to get out of cult, like what comes up? Create a safe exit plan. Yeah, there is okay, people leave cults, is it is a charity.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I feel like more money needs to be put into that. These are horrible things. People have to go through mad.

SPEAKER_00:

But this is the thing, it's very easy to be on the outside and say, why don't they just leave?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that's what I think people would question.

SPEAKER_00:

But I think it's so difficult. You can't.

SPEAKER_02:

Because every aspect of your life has been controlled by them, and therefore you don't know what it's like outside of that.

SPEAKER_00:

This is it.

SPEAKER_02:

And also by leaving, you are threatening that cult because you've left, you know, it's the you And if it's if someone came out of a cult and was like, Yeah, they're doing this and this and this, and they go, Yeah, that that's wild, man. Like, we need to tell someone about that. So it's them leaving also means that they can they can tell people about the cult and therefore raise the red flags that they don't know are red flags.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. You know, mad. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, craziness. What a crazy episode to end on.

SPEAKER_00:

I know. We've recorded four today.

SPEAKER_02:

We have.

SPEAKER_00:

Done well.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, my back sore. My throat sore, everything sore.

SPEAKER_00:

But yeah, there you go. That's uh that's a not a not a deep dive, but just uh an overview of an overview of cults of cults and ten cults that have been round. Culty.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, eleven if you include, hello, fresh.

SPEAKER_00:

Just put it out there. An avon and all pyramid schemes.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, all pyramid schemes.

SPEAKER_00:

All pyramid schemes.

SPEAKER_02:

If you enjoyed this episode of cults, we're sorry it's a little bit more uh uh well um has more adult themes in this one. Uh we do light episodes, lots of light episodes um in the bank, so uh check those out and nothing left to say but cue the outro. Thanks for joining us on bonus dad, bonus daughter. Don't forget to follow us on all our socials and share the podcast with someone who'd love it. We are available on all streaming platforms. See you next time. Bye-bye,