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Welcome to "Bonus Dad, Bonus Daughter," a heartwarming and insightful podcast celebrating the unique bond between a stepfather Davey, and his stepdaughter Hannah.
Join them as they explore the joys, challenges, and everyday moments that make this relationship special.
Each episode they take a topic and discuss the differences, similarities and the effect each one had one them
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What If We Could Change History? Should We? Part Two of Time Exploration
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What happens when father-daughter duo Hannah and Davey venture beyond the science of time travel into the philosophical rabbit hole? This captivating conclusion to our time travel exploration examines the profound questions that emerge when we consider moving through time.
We begin by acknowledging the existential anxiety many feel when contemplating cosmic timescales – that sense of insignificance that can be both terrifying and liberating. Through lively, authentic conversation, we tackle mind-bending concepts like the Grandfather Paradox and its potential resolution through multiverse theory. Could changing the past create new timelines rather than altering our own?
The conversation takes fascinating turns as we explore Plato's Cave Analogy and how it relates to our perception of reality, the Bootstrap Paradox (where information exists without origin), and the striking differences between Eastern cyclical time concepts and Western linear perspectives. We share personal experiences about how time perception shifts during everyday activities and challenge each other's thinking about determinism versus free will.
Perhaps most compelling is our discussion on the ethics of time travel. If we could prevent historical atrocities, should we? What unforeseen consequences might emerge? The parallels between scientific theories and religious concepts emerge organically throughout our conversation, revealing how these seemingly opposed worldviews often approach similar questions from different angles.
Whether you're a philosophy enthusiast, science fiction lover, or simply curious about the nature of time, this thought-provoking episode will leave you questioning your assumptions about reality while appreciating the precious present moment we all share. Subscribe now and join our ever-growing community of thinkers and dreamers exploring life's biggest questions together!
Hello and welcome to Bonus Dad. Bonus Daughter a special father-daughter podcast with me Hannah and me, davie, where we discuss our differences, similarities, share a few laughs and stories within our ever-changing and complex world, Each week we will discuss a topic from our own point of view and influences throughout the decades or you could choose one by contacting us via email, Instagram, Facebook or TikTok links in bio.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to part two of time travel. We hope that your brain has recovered from the last episode, because we're about to talk about it some more, but more from the philosophical side.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is going to be pretty much you, I think this one with your ideas with your philosophical brain.
Speaker 2:My philosophical brain will come in, I hope.
Speaker 1:I've just realised I'm doing product placement.
Speaker 2:White noise? Oh no.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's such a cool cup, though, right.
Speaker 1:It is a really cool cup.
Speaker 2:It's a cool festival as well. I think it's one of my favourite beakers, is it? Do you call that a beaker? Yeah, I like how you've not not trusted me with glass, though yeah, I don't, I don't, I just like the cup and I know you like white noise. I think that's why I chose it.
Speaker 1:It was either that or a beer festival mug I've just looked over on your shelf as well and I've realized I've still not brought that bottle of kraken over for you oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've got.
Speaker 2:Have you seen the other one?
Speaker 1:no, which one? So what have you? Which bottles have you?
Speaker 2:got. The one on the right is the ceramic Kraken bottle that you can't see because I've put a load of junk there. On the left. I think you gave me that it's a Lamb's Navy one, but it's like a limited edition one, oh right, Okay. It's just got a really nice print on it, like a dragon on it, which Lamb's Navy doesn't normally have. It normally has a lamb.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:But yeah, that ceramic Kraken one was bought for me by Mitchell for my birthday many, many years ago now. But I don't have the heart to throw it away. It's just such a nice bottle. I think they're display bottles For my birthday.
Speaker 1:Actually, I got given a, so I've got that caramel and sea salt one for you, a bottle which is quite a nice bottle.
Speaker 2:Oh yes. Yes, yes, I thought you meant a drink, because that's not my no, no, no, no, but I've also got a coffee one yes, I saw so I've got a coffee one, so I'll give you that bottle as well.
Speaker 1:And I've also got a full liter bottle of kraken, if you want that as well, when I've when I finish that it's still got kraken in it. She can't have it yet is it? Is it one of the normal ones? It's one of the normal ones. Oh no, I don't need that.
Speaker 2:You don't need that can we just talk about we have, we have uh, we did bring it up on the first life update and I know this one is is talking about oh, this is gonna come out weeks after. I know, I know, I know but I saw, because I know charlotte listens to this- yeah podcast and I saw her comment in your birthday card at work what is that um?
Speaker 1:she put a happy 50 or something like that.
Speaker 2:And then it was like I have a happy 50th or something like that. And then it was like have a rum and cum.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And that made me laugh. And I just want to say, Charlotte, that absolutely I read that whilst I was at work and I physically laughed out loud. I was like, oh, that's a nice message, and I just went ha, Like really laughed to myself. I was in the gym at the time and I was like, oh, I hope no one heard that Loads of my work colleagues wrote me my birthday card.
Speaker 1:It was brilliant and they'd all put like nice messages, like happy 50th. And da da da Andy put happy 60th. So me and him have fallen out, yeah, but the best one was Callum.
Speaker 2:What did he?
Speaker 1:put. He just put Callum or Davey Callum.
Speaker 2:That was it didn't even put up a bad thing.
Speaker 1:Didn't know but Callum is just like so dry yeah, it's hilarious. Callum is amazing. I keep I keep joking with him because obviously we do deal with quite high stressful situations. Callum never misses a beat. He, he is just. The world could be falling around, it could be the apocalypse, and Callum would just be. His hands would be you know, he would just be dead level and just straight and just deal with the issue and that would be it.
Speaker 2:I love Callum so much Sounds like a good colleague he is.
Speaker 1:But I laugh and joke with him and say that one day he's just going to lose his shit in Tesco.
Speaker 2:Club card price is only 2p less.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and he would just what. He would just implode, he would just absolutely explode, he would be a black hole. He would. He would be a black hole.
Speaker 2:Speaking of black holes? Yes, shall we start the episode?
Speaker 2:I thought we'd start off quite light, because we've already had our minds blown a little bit in the last episode and I know um our listeners and viewers will probably be the same yeah yeah, so this one where this particular it's a continuation of our previous episode on time travel yeah, I really struggle with talking about this subject, the I said it in the last episode as well. Um, that I I just struggle with the fact that learning about all of this makes me feel like I lack purpose in the world and I feel like, you know, we are just a tiny speck in the grand scheme of time we don't matter, and I think that really messes with my brain a little bit as well, those people with that main character yeah, yeah, I feel, yeah it just we are so insignificant
Speaker 2:yeah and I think that insignificance and sometimes come across as quite like mentally challenging for some people. So I just I kind of wanted to say that, just so that there are any people that do think that you're not alone.
Speaker 1:At the same time, though, when you look at it from that angle, you can look for another angle. If we are that insignificant and you know, through space, through time, through the universe, then let's just have fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, yeah, that is another way of looking at it, just have fun. Yeah, I mean yeah, that is another way of looking at it.
Speaker 1:Let's just enjoy our lives, because we are only here on this planet for a very, very short space of time, so just enjoy it while we're here. Stop chasing shadows, just enjoy the ride.
Speaker 2:Fair enough. Is that a lyric?
Speaker 1:It is a lyric. I thought it might have been. It was a lyric, yes, and it's actually on my WhatsApp message on my little, but you know it's like whatsapp about. Yeah, you know little message on there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what did? George used to say hi diddly ho neighbors, and it still does. I have not changed that excellent. I've had that hi diddly ho neighbors, for it's got to be close to like nine years excellent no, it's been on there a long time, ever since maybe. Maybe I ever got WhatsApp.
Speaker 1:Yeah, mine still definitely says so.
Speaker 2:settings I think Mitchell says at the pub it has said that.
Speaker 1:There you go, stop chasing shadows, just enjoy the ride. Enjoy the ride. Fair enough, it is a Morchiba lyric from the song, from a very philosophical song actually called. From a very philosophical song actually called Enjoy the Ride.
Speaker 2:I see.
Speaker 1:And that is the chorus to it Back to time travel so there you go. Yes, so back to time travel and the philosophy of time travel. So time travel isn't just a physics issue.
Speaker 2:Set me up yes.
Speaker 1:It is also a philosophical rabbit hole, I think is the best way to describe it. It is also a philosophical rabbit hole, I think is the best way to describe it. If we ever could move freely through time, what would that mean for identity, morality and choice?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think.
Speaker 1:Go Hannah.
Speaker 2:Right. So my theory on time travel is not, I would say, the traditional time travel. I think when people think of time travel, they think, oh, we'll go back in time and change this thing and then it would create a better future, right, okay, I think a lot of people think that they. I often hear if people want to go back in time, it's often to kill hitler. That's not you know, that's not a cultural thing. I'm just saying it's one of those things that people may pick out of our very decorated past and think that's probably pretty bad up there. We'll stop that from happening.
Speaker 1:9-11 is another one, yeah, you know, let's go and shoot the evil austrian yeah, let's.
Speaker 2:Let's get rid of the evil or stop something bad from happening send him to art school yes, yeah, I think, maybe that would be the case. Yeah, maybe killing is not like the way to go.
Speaker 2:But I'm just saying as an example, if time travel worked in that way, I don't think that would be scientifically correct, and the reason I think that is because then our future would be a different future and therefore not the future we've just lived. So what would happen from the time of, say, killing to up until present? Where did that block of time go? Where did that people's understandings and things like that go right? So where does where's that? Yeah, where, yeah, where's what happened to that segment of time?
Speaker 2:yes did it just erase what? What of all the people, everything that those people did in that time, what happened, you know? So I don't think if, if you know a lot in in a lot of sci-fi and a lot of things like that. When people go back to the future like, oh, don't, don't contact your, your um, yourself, don't, um, don't change anything, don't kill anything, like because it will change the, the, the next time, I don't think that's how it works. Um, I think that if that was, if, if, if time travel was a plausible theory and it actually did happen and could occur, the future, the future, our present that we're experiencing now has already been affected by a future person coming back in time to to meddle with that.
Speaker 1:Yes, does that make sense? Yeah, 100, because you remember when I said about the World War 2 and the Archduke Franz Ferdinand? Yeah, you know, there is a theory that the theory goes that the assassination of the Black Hand was they assassinated the first time around but then someone went back in time to make sure the assassination happened, because when they stopped the assassination, thinking World War, I wouldn't then start.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It actually created a much worse future.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so someone then went back and went oh, actually.
Speaker 2:Shit. We need to reverse our problem. Yeah, exactly, let's bump them off.
Speaker 1:I mean, one of the biggest examples of that you could argue as well is Terminator films. So you've got. Go back in time wish they were never created. Well, no, they weren't. They'd sent a terminator back in time to kill the young john connor. It's the same thing as the killing hitler.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but like that's, that's fine, but then then the future you're coming back to is not what you but there's, but there's also a paradox within that film.
Speaker 1:Because it's they send, because they send the terminator back to kill john connor, right, but what then happens is then they also send michael bean's character to go and stop that from happening. So he comes back from the future as well, fights the terminator, but he then has a little bit of sexy time with sarah connor and is he's actually john con's father.
Speaker 2:Yes, so the paradox, yeah, the paradox there and that that kind of the kind of thing is, if your parents weren't here, you weren't, you couldn't be here, that sort of thing. So if they were killed off, then that happens, or that has to happen. Before you know, something goes on and it's kind of like actually that film that you wanted to see, that we can't remember the name of, and we probably should have looked up in the break. They actually touch on this about the parents not being together to create the children.
Speaker 1:That's what Back to the Future is. Yeah, exactly. Back to the Future is exactly that, Exactly yeah, yeah, but I just don't think.
Speaker 2:If time travel was a thing, it wouldn't work that way. I think another problem that I have with time travel was a thing, it wouldn't work that way. I think another problem that I have with time travel is that?
Speaker 1:should we do it? I think that's, that's, that's a massive, we do talk about the ethics of it. Okay, okay again. You've not read the script, have you?
Speaker 2:I have not, I have not, and I have all of these ideas and I uh, and, and no order of which to put these ideas in yeah I'll stop there then, and let you continue to segue me in I love you so much, I'm sorry um get very excited because, first of all, we've got.
Speaker 1:You've heard of the grandfather paradox uh, you well. Well, explain it to everyone it's kind of what you were just discussing. It's what happened. You know what would happen if you went back in time and you prevented your grandmother, your grandfather, from meeting your grandfather, or grandfather from meeting your grandmother? Yeah, so that would mean that you were never born, which means that you couldn't go back in time. So your grandfather would live. So you are born, and so and so on it doesn't make sense and so on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's. I think that in in the most simplest of terms, is why I think sci-fi time travel doesn't work in. It couldn't work in the modern, it couldn't work in the real world. Ril, exactly, yeah, it couldn't work in the modern, it couldn't work in the real world.
Speaker 1:Ril Exactly, yeah, yeah, it couldn't work in the real life. Yeah, but I mean you've got. We've already said in the previous episode about the multiverse theory.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that is a probable solution and that explains when I said that segment of time is missing from killing Hitler to now, to the new timeline. That segment of time is gone. Well, it's not because of this multiverse theory, which I think, again, way more plausible than going back in time, and the paradox being an issue.
Speaker 2:So there is another theory that the universe itself you're almost describing the universe as a sentient being, in that it actually actively stops paradoxes from happening yeah, that would be a very intelligent being, and I think this is where kind of that religion kind of comes into it, because that's what you know a lot of religions are based on is some intelligent being being able to guide the universe. Science is kind of saying the same thing if it's saying about multiverse in a sense of, oh, the universe is protecting itself and it's like the universe that sounds, that theory sounds familiar. A sentient being or god?
Speaker 1:boff, there you go, boom, there you go.
Speaker 2:So it could just solve for religion you just solved religion.
Speaker 1:You nailed it nailed it no no um yeah, I think.
Speaker 2:I think we're all striving, we all, we all, we, we, as humans, we try to come up with something to explain something we don't know yes, yes, that's it.
Speaker 1:We tried.
Speaker 2:We tried to make logic out of it, and sometimes it's illogical and that's where our brains get warped yeah, exactly, we have to yeah, it has to be logical because even the tvl in in loki yes, there was a problem with that, because the sentient beings weren't they're all knowing people? Weren't they all knowing people as well? That was all, all the facade. And it goes back to plato's like cave analogy theory of you're looking at a scene, you're, you're, um. Have we spoke about plato's cave analogy?
Speaker 1:no, go for it. Is this the time? Yes, go for it.
Speaker 2:Go for it a plato's cave analogy. How I understand it, it can be interpreted in many, many ways, but how I understand it is can you imagine someone, um, in a cave with a plinth, um, that they are sort of chained up to and there's a scene happening above them, but all they can see is the shadows of that scene? So they're seeing people being slaughtered, cut I don't know, having a war up there. You, as the prisoner, can only see that war happening. What you don't know is they're actually puppets. Yes, so that never happened. But your reality and what you believe you've just seen, because you've seen it with your own eyes, albeit in shadow form you believe people have just been slaughtered and killed. Right, but actually it's a puppet master and just making you believe that, yeah. So I think when it comes to, like the multiverse theory and things like this in the tvla, is it, what is it tvla?
Speaker 1:is it time? Time, something bureau, isn't it? Yeah?
Speaker 2:tba, I don't know the. The idea of there being some sort of sentient being or something like that is not, is not something that's not been theorized, even by philosophers, and science is trying to explain that as well. The science is trying to be like oh, the universe is protecting itself, but the universe knows to protect itself. It's like it's it's kind of that very weird kind of uh, the puppet master essentially in that cave is. Is what we're describing here is that? Is there someone manipulating what we're seeing?
Speaker 1:that's it, because what is true?
Speaker 2:we see in global propaganda? Of course we are.
Speaker 1:Of course we're only seeing what we want to see and what we want to hear that's exactly because I've said this before in in that truth is what is actually true, but it's our own truth and you know I've mentioned it. But about the six and the nine and what you see it from the angle that you see and you see the it's the same number.
Speaker 1:But you are great, you, you're coming at it from different angles. So that is your truth, happens all the time. You know, and I do at work, it's like you only have it. You, you can only, you only have a small piece of the information, small little bit, and that's what you see, and the rest you fill in yourself and yeah, it's, it's, yeah, mind-blowing it is, it is, and I just I don't know. It astounds me that it's, it's perception versus perspective.
Speaker 2:Yeah, essentially yeah yeah, yeah, yeah that's what it is and people are sometimes so quick to believe something yes when there is more at play to be observed. I think that's exactly where science comes in to fill that gap is that we all believe this. This is how gravity works, this is how this works, quantum mechanics, physics this is how this all works, but actually this is just what, just how we believe it to be working.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how we perceive it, how we perceive it to be working, belief and idea come back into it. Indeed. Do you want another paradox? Oh, yes. The bootstrap paradox.
Speaker 2:Oh, what's this one?
Speaker 1:So in this one, if you travel back in time with a copy of Shakespeare's plays, okay, give them to a young shakespeare and he published them as his own. Centuries later, you read those plays, travel back in time and give them back to him, who actually wrote the plays? Oh, okay, this is. This is a paradox. It's something that exists without a true origin. It seems impossible, but it does actually create a contradiction. So, from a philosophical point of view, so there would have to have been an origin of those plays being written. But what would the origin have been if there's that constant time loop of someone going back and giving shakespeare those copy of his wrote them of his own plays that he then publishes?
Speaker 2:I don't know. I do not have a philosophical comeback for that. This is a tumbleweed moment. I just does it end, okay, it doesn't. That's going on forever. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. Mate, I can't explain that one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just yeah yeah, think about that one. How they would have to was theoretically someone had. There would have to have been an initial point of when he wrote.
Speaker 2:Those plays, the initial time in my mind unless every point of time travel is a new multiverse yeah, the multiverse theory does does support that I guess um because yeah, because every time they go back and give. So, actually, who wrote shakespeare's plays? Was shakespeare from another universe? Yes, which is just causality.
Speaker 1:It's causality, essentially chicken and the egg yeah, chicken and the egg, yeah, yeah, wow, mind blown, yeah, yeah, okay. So, uh, what about determinism? We've already meant with this. We've brought up yeah as well, free will, free will, free will I think it.
Speaker 2:I think it would be a very main character of us to egotistical, if you want to go with a better word, yes to think that every single decision that we make sparks off multiple universes. Like you said before about choosing to come to norwich, me choosing to go study from home as opposed to nottingham right, I think it would be very strange of us to think that the universe revolves around us in that way it's very egotistical to think that and maybe the points of fracture, like we have free will within this time realm this universe, whatever that we're doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but there are maybe significant points, which again comes up in Loki, that I'm thinking of, because I quite like this idea. There are significant points in time that those branches happen, so it's actually more of a global phenomenon, for everyone's branches branch off at that point like the franz ferdinand like the franz ferdinand that would be, I would assume that would be yeah, that's a significant event but I think it would be very egotistical to think that it happens with every single decision we make where would it stop?
Speaker 2:we're talking about the butterfly effect if I'd had McDonald's breakfast this morning, or my croissant, which I actually had. Has that really played much bearing on the rest of my life?
Speaker 1:probably not it could have been because if I'd have brought you a McDonald's here's a thought so I brought you a McDonald's in today or I didn't, because you said you didn't want one. Uh, you decided on a croissant instead. Now say, for instance, as I brought in the because I had today, I came in just with a couple of bags all in one go, and I wasn't holding a mc bag. If I had been holding a McDonald's bag, I could have not been able to do your door properly went to open the door. The door didn't open. I carried on walking. I smashed my face. We ended up in hospital today.
Speaker 1:Because I then went to hospital, I then met somebody who I'd never met before, started talking to them. We had a conversation that might have affected, I don't know, me making another decision about something else. To say I don't know, say to do with work, yeah, which then created another choice, which then goes off onto not global, but you know in my life say okay, so there's work. But then I might make a choice to say I don't know, leave that job and go work with this person, yeah, in which case my career has just suddenly changed because of a mcdonald's bag yeah, that's essentially the butterfly effect.
Speaker 2:It's kind of the yeah that one thing that one catalyst event changes the rest of your life exactly um, while I think that is, I guess, plausible, there's a part of me that's like again it's. It puts way too much bearing on the individual, I think yeah and I just yeah, okay, there's lots of events that led up to the arch archduke ferdinand's assassination, I'm sure, oh, there would be many different events.
Speaker 2:But there would be lots of things where someone, literally like yourself, with a mcdonald's bag that could have set off something else in the globe which had nothing to do with you, in in, in the off, uh, you know, outcome wise, I just, I think there has to be an element of free will in the universe because otherwise we wouldn't have the good, the bad, we wouldn't have, you know, the choice to to do what we want, to create what we want, to theorize what we want, if we didn't have three free will yeah you know there's, there's, I don't think I think there's a part of our lives that are determined, that are perhaps predetermined, but I think that's again probably some sort of old religious thing that I've got in my head somewhere in the back of my mind.
Speaker 2:I do think there is perhaps a lot that's determined at birth, for example, sexuality being one of them. You know things like that that aren't nurture yeah, they are nature and therefore predetermined. I think it's very likely that my illness that I have was perhaps predetermined at birth. I knew, you know, there's something in my body that would be genetics it could be.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying it is because I don't want to blame anyone, but it's but it could be.
Speaker 2:But I think stuff like that somewhat is predetermined at at the start. But it's what you do with those pre-determined things which gives you free will, yeah, exactly um.
Speaker 1:So if yeah, I mean that's very, very philosophical, yeah that is very, very philosophical, very. I mean yeah because that is very, very philosophical. I mean yeah Because also, oh, my mind's just, yeah, think about going. Yeah, now let's move on.
Speaker 2:Should we go to preventism?
Speaker 1:Yeah, presentism versus eternalism. So we're getting metaphysical now. So only the present.
Speaker 2:This is philosophical, only the present is real, only the present is real, and I understand this. I understand this concept Because, again, if we think of the world as everything is all happening at once, yes, and that's one of the theories about time. Yeah, Therefore, your present is only real right Because you're always living your present.
Speaker 1:Theoretically yes.
Speaker 2:And you are always living in the present because you are in the present. Yes, that's what we call it anyway. That's how we linguistically call it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, tomorrow never. Comes.
Speaker 2:Tomorrow never comes right, because when tomorrow is here, it's today, exactly. But we do have a yesterday. So I think sometimes, when it's hard for us, the way we perceive time as linear, to understand the idea of there being a past, because there are things that have happened before us that we know of and there are things, but we don't know the things that are going to happen after us that's very true, yes, so I think that's where the concept of presentism, presentism presentism.
Speaker 2:Present of presentism is difficult to comprehend because we perceive time in a linear aspect. Yes, because that's how it works for our bodies and physiologically works. Yes, we have a beginning and we're working towards an end.
Speaker 1:Yeah end.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, no matter how short this is very philosophical no matter how short that life may be, it is effectively we have a past but not a future. Yeah, the future is never here sort of thing. It doesn't mean you can't do things to better your future, of course, but yeah I don't think it necessarily means that we are there in terms of eternalism, though, unless you've got anything to add there.
Speaker 1:No, I was literally just I was, I was, I wasism, though, unless you've got anything to add there. No, I was literally just I was looking at. The reason I've got my phone in my hand is that I know in one particular film, but I can't remember what film it is and it's not telling me. There was a film where someone says life is a series of moments. That's all it is. Life is a series of moments, each one lost. Series of moments, each one lost.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when the next one comes in, and of course I can't remember what film it's from.
Speaker 2:Life is also like a box of chocolates you never know what you're gonna get years in terms of eternalism now, like, like, like I said about moving through space and time, when we were talking about interstellar um and when he went on that planet, every tick was a day going by or a year going by, whatever it was on earth. So they, they proposed that she froze herself so that she could be eventually awake, for when he comes back. And when he comes back, he has not aged. I think he's maybe aged, say, a year compared to the hundred plus years that may have passed on earth so effectively. To me that is kind of a little bit of a nod to immortality there. Yeah, but, but he experienced time in the exact same way. So he is not, but he is perceived as immortal to everyone else, correct? So I again, I don't think there is room in there for immortality.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Immortality to me should be sci-fi. Yes, the only way that we could remain immortal is that we're frozen over time, but then I wouldn't really class that as life.
Speaker 1:You're not life, you're not living, you're just preserved if anything, you're just preventing the inevitable exactly not avoiding not. You know, you will eventually die there's a few films that do do tackle that subject as well Futurama, futurama, yeah, yeah, I mean even the film Get Out, yeah, with um Dooflip and Dooflip, yeah, I can't pronounce his last name. I won't be able to help you. Kaluuya, daniel Kaluuya, I think I pronounced it.
Speaker 2:Sorry, daniel, because he listens to the podcast. It's not that he listens.
Speaker 1:But the idea of the soul and the personality being taken out of one body and placed into another younger body.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is the only way I think immortality could work theoretically.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But then again that's reincarnation, I guess in some ways you could argue that yeah, which is another religious kind of theory.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, you can kind of see where religion and science come a little bit together in this. They're proposing the same things. It's just one is believing in a higher being and the other is trying not to believe in a higher being.
Speaker 1:I think that's one's still searching for searching for the higher being determines that the answers have already been found and it's all trust in this one. Yeah, um, because actually similar to religion. Actually, when you look at Eastern and Western concepts of time, they are different. The way that we, even our own different cultures, perceive time. I mean in the West we see time as being very linear, Straight arrow past the future, like that. That's it.
Speaker 2:And when we die, we die generally as what is believed.
Speaker 1:Exactly, but in a lot of Eastern traditions, time is actually cyclical. Yeah, hinduism, yeah, taoism. The concept of samsara in Buddhism yeah, you know, I think it's Hinduism as well A circle of birth, death and rebirth, and that time has cosmic cycles that repeat indefinitely.
Speaker 2:I think I think has cosmic cycles that repeat indefinitely. I think I think time as well for some people. Some people just perceive time differently and you could, you could take mushrooms and perceive time differently. Some people lose time, some people make time.
Speaker 1:You know there's, there's more time in the day than there actually is okay, so yes, two days ago, yeah, two days ago, I drove home from work. I did a ridiculously long day that was there was exacerbated by the fact that norwich council and I will never forgive you for this have decided to close nearly every single road off near where I live. Yeah, an eight hour it's actually really true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, bastards, right an eight hour an.
Speaker 1:It's actually really true. Yeah, bastards, an eight hour, an eight minute car journey from where I work to go home took me 45 minutes after I'd done a 16 hour day. I'm looking at you, norwich Council. I was not happy. That meant when I actually pulled up into my driveway. Yeah, I'm savage over it. I'm absolutely savage, I can tell I'm absolutely raging over this, but when I pulled up outside my house, I had no idea of the route that I took.
Speaker 1:I could not remember yeah the route of me get I pulled up in the thing. I was like I have. Which way did I actually just?
Speaker 2:drive. I have moments like that. I couldn't remember it. I have moments like that as well. Did I even look when I pulled out on that roundabout? Yeah, you do it so instinctively. Instinctively, driving is one of the things that I find is very instinctual now. And did I look on that roundabout? Was that traffic light green? Sometimes I'm like that, like you know completely, like lose my mind, you know, and I'm like you know, did I? How did I get from there to there? Did I follow a sat nav? Did I get?
Speaker 2:there on instinct like it's just mad. Yeah, so yeah, I think there's room for both, and I and I I know there's some evidence out there. Well, some people claim I guess might be a better way of describing it that they have um memories of past lives yeah, yeah, I mean, there's that boy, wasn't it when barra barra? Yeah, I knew you were going to say that, yeah where he felt like he had grown up or come from barra barra island yeah, where he'd never visited.
Speaker 2:Apparently he'd never been exposed to such the place. I'd never even heard of it yeah before I'd ever researched into um, into this um, into this um, not for this podcast for philosophy back way back when, because I never researched anything for this podcast Um, literally nothing, um, so yeah, I don't know. There's just, I don't know, you don't know.
Speaker 1:I think that's. The beautiful thing, though, is that you don't know and you're open to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's. The beautiful thing, though, is that you don't know and you're open to it. Yeah, I am open to it. That's what the beautiful thing is. I am open to all the theories because, you know, there's some things in my life that I'm like why the hell did that happen to me? And I'm thinking about that, because I must have done something wrong for that to happen, and I think that's a very religious concept is that you do something wrong and therefore and karma is another thing which is in a lot of religions do something wrong, something bad is going to happen later in life. Right, yeah, do something good, something good is going to happen in later life. I feel like I do a lot of good things, but not a lot of good things happen to me. You know, it's kind of that Karma. It is that karma, and I'm always I think I always if something bad happens to me, I was like why do I deserve this?
Speaker 1:Exactly, I'm the same.
Speaker 2:It's egotistical though as well, it's very self-centered. Very main character energy is that you have done something and that's why this bad thing is happening, not the effect of anyone else or anyone else, because it's very rare that something bad happens to you and it doesn't affect anyone else around you. Yeah, that's really rare. So it's like maybe they did something and now they're having to. You know, where does the buck stop? You know, who do you keep blaming for these bad things?
Speaker 1:That's exactly it. That is exactly it, you know.
Speaker 2:I think you just got to live life as positively as I guess you can, and you've just got to roll with the punches. When life gives you lemons, make lemonade. It's yeah, simple as that, really. So share to all your mental health problems Lemonade, lemonade.
Speaker 1:Lemonade. So shall we kind of just finish off on the ethics of time travel.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, Sorry, I've completely kiboshed. This.
Speaker 1:No, no, not at all, not at all. So we've already mentioned a couple of things here. You know, would it be like you've already mentioned, you know, should we go back and kill?
Speaker 2:Hitler yeah.
Speaker 1:Should we?
Speaker 2:Yeah, should we save a loved one? Yeah, invest in Bitcoin.
Speaker 1:Now, this one is a little, so this is the difference.
Speaker 2:Lorry number things always get me as well.
Speaker 1:Going back and killing Hitler. You're doing it for global, for other people. Right Saving a loved one. You're doing it for someone else you Right saving a loved one you're doing it for someone else you and your family.
Speaker 2:You and your family yeah, and the person that's dead.
Speaker 1:Now investing in Bitcoin in 2010.
Speaker 2:Self-centered.
Speaker 1:Oh, going back and getting the lottery numbers.
Speaker 2:Numbers, yeah, lottery numbers.
Speaker 1:Look what happened in Back to the Future with Biff, who is Trump, by the way. I'm absolutely convinced that the writers of Back to the Future saw that.
Speaker 2:They're like that's going to place it on.
Speaker 1:Trump I'm sure that's what Trump did Went back and bought the sports almanac.
Speaker 2:But, ethically speaking, if we had the opportunity to do that, it would have to be put forward to a council and we'd all vote on it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because, at the end of the day, if something like that changes and it affects the rest of the life going on and we had no theories about what would happen to the current life we're living, etc. Etc. Would everything in our history books change? But it would be because we don't know the outcome. I think that would be impossible. To make that decision, one person making that decision to be able to go back and do that, yeah, I think it's very, again, very main character energy of that person to go back and change something that could affect well, it would affect yeah, billions of lives.
Speaker 1:Well, you could even argue that if one person had the ability to time travel and could do that, then they could also. You know that's too much power for one person. They could go back and they could become a god to somebody, which we've seen in many different programs the Orville, in fact. Seth MacFarlane touches on that in the Orville Army of Darkness. I know I've gone, like you know Ash and the Evil Dead. He goes back in time and this is my boomstick.
Speaker 2:I think ethically it shouldn't be done because as much as horrible those things are, it's probably made us better people and shaped the world just that little bit more that we will try and prevent anything from ever happening like that again you know yeah, because you could argue as well is that changing history could erase people, other people's lives.
Speaker 1:So where do you yeah? Where do you draw the line?
Speaker 2:what if, by killing hitler, we erased somehow the lineage of a person who could have been the cure for cancer?
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Who could have come up with quantum theory. If you want to go to something that's not as deep or is not as you know, or there's another.
Speaker 1:it caused the effect of another atrocity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, perhaps Hitler's like reign and everything he did was the lesser outcome of a bigger issue that someone's already gone back in time and erased.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you just don't know.
Speaker 2:It's all theoretical questions, it's all theory and should we mess with time? My thinking's no.
Speaker 1:There is one other. We started these two episodes off when you said you wanted to talk about films so let's finish off on one, on one film that's just literally popped into my head and see if this would be ethical as well. Have you ever seen the Tomorrow War?
Speaker 2:no.
Speaker 1:With Chris Pratt.
Speaker 2:No okay.
Speaker 1:So in the Tomorrow War it starts off at the beginning. It's an excellent film. Okay, it's on Prime in the. Tomorrow War he at the beginning. It's excellent film. Okay, it's on prime. In the tomorrow war he at the beginning of the film, there's a football game. You're all watching football. Suddenly this wormhole opens. All these soldiers come rushing out of this wormhole and they basically say look, we are in a war in the future. We are dying. We need people from now to bolster our army, to go into the future to help us fight.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:Okay, and they ask for volunteers. Now, these volunteers then go through a selection screening process to see if they are able to time travel, right. But what you really find out is it isn't a selection screening process to see if they can manage the time travel, right, but what you really find out is it isn't a selection screening process to see if they can manage the time travel, it's to see because they're already from the future and so say, for instance, we went, okay, we're standing in the army recruiting office, they're about to give us a gun to go and fight these aliens in the future. They look at you and they bring up your file and it says Hannah lives until she's 99 years old. Okay, they look up my file and they go oh, davey, he's 50. He dies when he's 51. You go, that's how they select them People with terminally ill diseases, people who don't.
Speaker 1:Also people who don't have. Also, people who don't have children. Or if they might live for 10 years, but they're on their own, they don't have children, they don't get married, they don't have families. So essentially, what they're doing is they're doing a screening process to protect other timelines.
Speaker 2:Wow. Yeah, I think it's only ethical if the person was aware of that fact. Yeah, I think it's only ethical if the person was aware of that fact. Yeah, if the person being recruited they didn't know. Yeah, that's not ethical to me.
Speaker 1:They didn't know, because in the film he goes into the future and he ends up. Sorry, I'm really spoiling this film.
Speaker 2:No, I feel like they would need to be. In order for that to be ethical, they would need to be transparent. When they come through that wormhole, initially they're like this this is what we're going to do. We're going to grab you because you make no significance hard to hear, I imagine, but there's no significant bearing on your life. In the next thing, you know, you can come with us and do this. One last thing to think I, if that were me and I only had one year to live, of course I would. I'd go because because if there's nothing left for me here, there's nothing that I I left to do in my life. Maybe this is a bit like going down the suicidal thought route. That's not my, that's not where I'm coming from.
Speaker 2:I feel like if I was told that I'd be like, yeah, sure, so I feel like their trend, their lack of transparency there has made that unethical. Yeah, when had they'd been straight and honest in the first place? Maybe, maybe people would have actually volunteered.
Speaker 1:Ah, but there is something. There's something that I left out as well, which does challenge that argument. They only go over there for a certain amount of days and they come back, so what would then happen if they did find that, oh David, he dies in a car accident on this day? At this time, I'll be like, well, do you know?
Speaker 2:what Well I'm avoiding cars on this day. At this time I'll be like well, do you know what? I'm avoiding cars on that day? I'm staying in bed that day, yeah.
Speaker 1:You know it's, it's that cause. Then you'd have the knowledge of how you would die and the facility and the ability to stop it from happening. Not that you're not necessarily with a terminal disease but, accidental death. You would go okay. So Davey dies on the 7th of november through falling through a plate glass window. Well, guess what? I'm staying on the ground floor that day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, maybe that would even affect the future further, because you've lived when you shouldn't have lived there.
Speaker 1:You go and then that has a knock-on effect and the butterfly effect comes back into it, back into place I still think it's unethical yeah, completely yeah, which was the original question? Oh, I've drifted off on tangents by the way, drifty, drifty, but it's an excellent film and that does throw up those philosophical and ethical questions Should we go back?
Speaker 2:I don't think we should.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and also about family dynamics as well. There's a very interesting family which I won't spoil but is incredibly interesting. It's a film on prime. I don't think it really got a massive release. It kind of slipped under the radar a little bit, but it's excellent. And when you think the film ends there's more. Oh, it's a very, very, very good film from from philosophical, theoretical and ethical, time traveling, time traveling perspective I have to give that one a go. That's a very good film. So there you go. Lovely, there we are.
Speaker 2:Well, I think on that note, we'll end the two-parter there. So thank you so much for joining us for this two-part episode on time travel. If you liked this episode, please check out our other ones, because there are plenty in Zeebank, and only thing left to say is cue the outro. Thanks for joining us on Bonus Dad, bonus Daughter. Don't forget to follow us on all our socials and share the podcast with someone who'd love it. We are available on all streaming platforms. See you next time. Bye-bye, outro Music.